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Garrosh haters, COME!
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Post by
prodron
List the things, Garrosh has done to offend you.
I love Garrosh and I will defend his noble and bravado enriched actions!
Post by
ArgentSun
Garrosh's history started years back in Nagrand. He was a young orc, grown up with the idea that his father was the man who had betrayed all of the orcish clans, and was living with the belief that he was somehow going to follow Grom's path and destroy the final remnants of the noble orcs. Thrall showed him how things were - he introduced the concepts of self-sacrifice and honor.
Today, Garrosh seems to show no respect for what he found so revering years ago in Nagrand. The main thought in his head is war. He hates the Alliance with passion - even though he has never warred against them, and none of the Alliance races have attacked him directly. His hate is unreasonable.
When he and Thrall visited Rhonin to discuss the danger inside Ulduar, he expressed - violently - his disdain and hate towards both Brann and Varian. He even went as far as to engage in combat with Varian, when it is well-known that Dalaran is to remain neutral zone.
If you observe him and Overlord Saurfang in the Borean Tundra, you will notice that the conversation between them makes it clear that Garrosh believes he is in Northrend not only to fight the Lich King, but the Alliance as well. Saurfang, a war veteran, attempts to explain the horrors of any war to the young warleader - to no avail. Garrosh appears unable to comprehend consequences and long-term plans, as well as follow orders.
In Icecrown when Garrosh and Thrall arrive at the Argent Coliseum, Garrosh makes it clear that he has no intentions to "behave" himself. He is there to watch Alliance members die and suffer, and if possible - for him to be the cause of that suffering.
Note that I am not starting a Garrosh vs. Varian argument. I am attacking purely Garrosh here - whether he was being provoked or not makes no difference, a man of strong character should be able to keep that character even when the situation is not particularly pink.
Especially
when the situation is grim.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Oooooh kay, here we go.
I dare say every Garrosh fan is going to nit pick at this list, but thats there progative.
- He is a worthless leader who cried in nagrand for years, only made leader probably because of his bloodline, only to do nothing well his people were captured and killed.
- He Undermines Thrall in everything he does and repeatadly keeps trying to be the alpha male when he failed misrably to show any sign of good leadership in the past.
- He, as argent says, hates the alliance but has nothing to back it, showing he only wants to use them as a excuse to go to war and sate his bloodlust.
- He breaks down the honor and all the orcs faught for that they lost years ago, in his actions of wanting to go to all out war, he sets the horde back as being the 'bad guys' (broken front example).
- He discredits all grom sacrificed himself for in the orcs being free, by pulling them backwards.
- He shows his disgust for any other races of the horde except orcs, and systematicly is set up to break the horde apart from within.
- He is unable to attend any meeting of two sides without breaking into a blood fueled rage and attack someone.
I'm sure I'll add more to this later.
Post by
159454
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
here's my list too.
1:)
he's a failure of a leader, back on nagrand he was sucking his thumb rather than defending garadar, and in borean tundra he shows a complete lack of tactical mind, by sugesting the most stupid actions to fix the horde's problems (I mean really, how would help warsong hold if they atacked valiance keep? by doing that, all the nerubians atacking valiance keep would join forces with the ones atacking the quarry in warsong hold and overwhelm the defences, any true tactical leader would had seen that but garrosh is too narrowminded to do so)
2:)
he lacks self-controll.
in the past thrall has been called everything, from dog. pig, greenskin, animal, monster, and worst, and he knows how to keep his cool, only truly losing his calm personality when the situation warrants it (such as when he saw taretha's head, or when he saw grom knocked by mannoroth) a leader who can't bring order to his own mind cannot hope to bring order to his own troops.
3:)
he shows absolutely no regard for honor, ordering his troops to use cowardly tactics like the ones in the broken front, that IS NOT what the horde stands for, and both he and his buddies are an embarrasment for all what the horde represents. to make things worst, his conversation in borean tundra shows he has no remorse of killing children "to prevent them to take arms when they grow up".
is against the honor of the horde to atack someone who can't defend him/herself, his own father was agaist killing children, it would seem garrosh must have missed that lesson.
4:)
Shows absolutely no respect for the elder, among orcish culture, nothing is venerated more than the wisdom of the elder, those who have been in this world longer than we have, and thus can help us prevent the mistakes of the past
while thrall listens to the wisdom of the spirits, and surrounds himself with diferent advisors that have greatly diferent opinions (so that he can gain insight at a problem from diferent angles, thus facilitating the improvisation of a good solution)
garrosh is arrogant enough to believe that he has all the answers, and refuses advices from both the veterans who have fought longer than he (rejects saurfang's advice) and from the spirits (thrall advices patience in the pre-event of WOTLK, and garrosh laughs in his face)
5:)
this one has been mentioned several times, he hates the alliance for no reason at all, and wishes to exterminate them without a clear motive, and that sucks. War is never a solution for anything, one thing I love about jaina and thrall is that (besides the fact they could make an AWESOME couple) they both are more than capable of fighting a war, but first resort to diplomacy, and only after diplomacy has failed they resort to violence.
A leader is more than just a general leading soldiers, a leader is suposed to know what to do in times of peace, when to use the pen rather than the sword, how to negociate treaties, do economy, trading, all sorts of things that can improve the wellbeing of their people.
garrosh has shown signs of none, I bet the moment he has no more enemies to conquer he would declare civil war among his own people just to have more living beings to kill, he simply cannot function with peace.
I could mention more, but my baby is crying so I'll cut it short here, I may mention more tomorrow.
Post by
hymer
If you observe him and Overlord Saurfang in the Borean Tundra, you will notice that the conversation between them makes it clear that Garrosh believes he is in Northrend not only to fight the Lich King, but the Alliance as well. Saurfang, a war veteran, attempts to explain the horrors of any war to the young warleader - to no avail.
It takes a while for Saurfang to get through to Garrosh, but he does it.
http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=25237#comments
Here's how that conversation ends:
Saurfang
: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes ...
Garrosh
: How have you managed to survive for so long, Saurfang? Not fallen victim to your own memories?
Saurfang
: I don't eat pork ...
It's a pretty insightful question Garrosh asks. Saurfang saying 'no, or i'll kill you' is the end of the argument, and the conversation turns to Garrosh' admiration for Saurfang.
Let's not be unfair to Garrosh, however much we may dislike him. Saying that he does not understand strategy may be true. But there's nothing to indicate that he does not learn. Putting Saurfang together with Garrosh is a smart move by Thrall, who can't himself control Garrosh. It seems Saurfang can. And maybe teach him something along the way.
Post by
Patty
Saurfang
: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes ...
Garrosh
: How have you managed to survive for so long, Saurfang? Not fallen victim to your own memories?
Saurfang
: I don't eat pork ...
It's a pretty insightful question Garrosh asks. Saurfang saying 'no, or i'll kill you' is the end of the argument, and the conversation turns to Garrosh' admiration for Saurfang.
Garrosh's question could be just as easily interpreted as him taunting Saurfang, regarding him weak for regretting the deeds of the past for the 'glorious Old Horde'.
Post by
hymer
My point exactly, Patty132471. :)
If one chooses to see everything Garrosh does and says in a certain light, on is being judgmental and unfair. And loses out on playing around with more than one interpretation.
Post by
Patty
If one chooses to see everything Garrosh does and says in a certain light, on is being judgmental and unfair. And loses out on playing around with more than one interpretation.
Indeed, but your personal interpretation is only one; You say yourself that it is rather narrow-minded to see everything Garrosh does and says in a certain light. In my opinion, the tone in which Garrosh speaks to Saurfang shows little respect, but a fraction of respect is still held for him.
Post by
taurenmoo812
If one chooses to see everything Garrosh does and says in a certain light, on is being judgmental and unfair. And loses out on playing around with more than one interpretation.
Indeed, but your personal interpretation is only one; You say yourself that it is rather narrow-minded to see everything Garrosh does and says in a certain light. In my opinion, the tone in which Garrosh speaks to Saurfang shows little respect, but a fraction of respect is still held for him.
See I'm gonna hazzard a guess here, but I'm betting the only reason he might show a thread of respect to Saurfang, is not based on his current words of wisdom, but based on how Saurfang to killed under the sway of the burning legion. to Garrosh, he doesn't care about how the old horde was under the legions manipulation, he just sees it as 'that was when the horde showed strength, when they killed without remorse' kind of thing.
It also explans why he has zero respect for Thrall, because to him Thrall isn't a warrior, and thats the only thing garrosh understands.
Post by
Patty
See I'm gonna hazzard a guess here, but I'm betting the only reason he might show a thread of respect to Saurfang, is not based on his current words of wisdom, but based on how Saurfang to killed under the sway of the burning legion. to Garrosh, he doesn't care about how the old horde was under the legions manipulation, he just sees it as 'that was when the horde showed strength, when they killed without remorse' kind of thing.
I think the Burning Legion's sway is irrelevant. He values great warriors above everyone else, which is partially Thrall's own fault by painting his father as a God-like figure with great strength, courage and honour. If Saurfang killed Gruul in a duel, he would likely hold him in much higher regard than he currently does. I can't help but think Thrall gave Garrosh all of the tools he needed to become such an ass-hat.
Post by
313143
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
God gave all women the tools to be prostitutes. However, (most) women don't become prostitutes.
God is questionable and Garrosh is a single person.
His "emo phase" Was him worrying about turning into the ruthless, reckless and barbaric Grom Hellscream reincarnated. Thrall comes along after a quest chain to show Garrosh that Grom had redeeming qualities, although Thrall didn't mention Grom's weaknesses (he was probably looking back with rose-tinted glasses) And encourages Garrosh to basically embrace his heritage.
Garrosh sets out to become his father in another body, after all - Thrall the wise Warchief just told him what a saint his father was! He pursues this aim, but suffers from the same shortfalls as his father did. But of course, this must be a strength because Grom was such a wondrous soul, right? Now, we complain about how disrespectful and bashful Garrosh is, which there is no denial of - But ignore Thrall's contribution to this personality shift.
Going back to MM's analogy, it could be argued that; God (Thrall, in this case) pimped and manipulated a naïve soul (Garrosh, in this instance) into becoming a ^&*!, who later bites back at their pimp.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Its no more predent to assume Thrall is responsible for Garrosh's destructive rage issues then saying it was Terenas's fault for Arthas's actions.
To Thrall, Grom was a brother to him, and given his great sacrifice, what more could he do then honor his memory. Oh, maybe he should have wiped his hand clean, take all the credit for the orcs being freed of there demonic enslavement, and leave Garrosh where he was in nagrand. Yeah, THAT makes perfect sense.
Nobody, including Thrall, could have predicted how Garrosh would be after he told him about his father and what he did. It just turns out he was a raging, stereotypical warcraft 1 style orc, or par with lord of the rings.
Another reason to add why I dislike him, is because he's just that, a stereotypical, mouth breathing 'me kill puny human' style orc with no redeemable features.
Post by
313143
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Its no more predent to assume Thrall is responsible for Garrosh's destructive rage issues then saying it was Terenas's fault for Arthas's actions.Did Terenas tell Arthas that Ner'zhul was a great hero and a saint? Although I believe Terenas may have been partially to blame for Arthas' actions.
To Thrall, Grom was a brother to him, and given his great sacrifice, what more could he do then honor his memory. Oh, maybe he should have wiped his hand clean, take all the credit for the orcs being freed of there demonic enslavement, and leave Garrosh where he was in nagrand. Yeah, THAT makes perfect sense.Which happens to brush over everything "bad" Grom did.
Nobody, including Thrall, could have predicted how Garrosh would be after he told him about his father and what he did. It just turns out he was a raging, stereotypical warcraft 1 style orc...This is true, but honesty is surely the best policy.
or par with lord of the rings.Many things in
WoW
fantasy in general can be rooted back to Tolkien's literature.
Another reason to add why I dislike him, is because he's just that, a stereotypical, mouth breathing 'me kill puny human' style orc with no redeemable features.He is also an inspirational leader, which can't really be denied.
--
My point was that any woman (Garrosh) can sink as low as a prostitute (a war-crazy orc), but most women are responsible enough not to.I know your point. My point is that if a woman is told that their mother was a prostitute, and was a great, rich and well-respected woman; they may naïvely follow in their footsteps.
Post by
313143
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
I know your point. My point is that if a woman is told that their mother was a prostitute, and was a great, rich and well-respected woman; they may naïvely follow in their footsteps.
well-respected
prostitute
Bad example.That depends on what someone says of a prostitute's profession. I hold prostitutes in a higher regard than the average bucket, because at least they have enough self-respect to charge. Women who offer sex can also be seen in different regards by different people. Concubines were actually some women's ambitions in older times; and that is basically being a leader's sex on tap. Prostitutes are not that different.
Strong-willed
Orc who fell back into his addictionEqually as bad example.
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