This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Melee Hunters
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Tany
When I read how hunters should have melee abilities in the Survival tree I think it should come at a cost to their ranged abilities. It would make a hunter OP if they could melee dps as well as they could range. So for that matter they wouldn't be masters at melee, but would HAVE to rely on getting in to lay a trap, smacking the mob/player, getting out to hit them with a sting or two (for a proc), get back in and melee with your mail wearing arse! OR think of the current Boomkin-ish proc system; except where a range proc will boost melee and or a melee/ trap will boost range.
And my suggestion said that if you still wanted to play a strictly ranged Hunter, stick with Marksman. As the class is now, Surv and Marks are just about identical in play style (one allowing for more movement). BM isn't much different and none of the Hunter Trees pose a real challenging game play. So why not suggest adding melee to the survival tree? Not to make them OP as many of the arguments seem to suggest, but rather to offer a very unique type of game play.
All classes are either melee OR ranged. Be creative and have a class and tree that would cause for a player to depend on both to do maximum damage. And for those who can't master THAT type of Surv tree, go back to the 4 mashing buttons of Marks or BM trees. It's for that reason you don't see too many feral dps druids out there. But for those that like a more 'challenging' type of game-play the option could be there.
In a nutshell... it would be a nice change and challenge if Blizzard added diversity to this particular class by augmenting skills the Hunter already has built into one of its trees.
Post by
leuitinet
You want to augment the SV Hunters to be able to melee as well. Like Ive said, I love the idea because Im one of the few that uses what melee we have, but Its not meant to be. Really its not. If Blizz augments Hunters, than they need to do the same with all other classes to maintain the balance. I mean if a Rogue, Warrior, and Pally had more ranged attacks than things would get silly.
Warrior: I just killed a Hunter.
Mage: How ya do that?
Warrior: With my uber new ranged abilities.
There would be so much QQ about how Hunters could do well in both ranged and melee. I gave an example of why this cant be. Rogues get raped by Hunters, unless the Hunter is in melee range. Its the balance of it all. Hunters odds of losing to pure melee class are slim. Its about balance. Again, if they augment Hunters, they should augment the other non caster classes.
The idea you have about going in and out of ranges, works for PvP. PvE SV Hunters dont want to run in and out laying traps. Ya gotta think about that. Each spec has its own raid utility. You cant change a class tree that doesnt have both PvP and PvE utility.
I love the idea of goin back and forth, but I know that my place as a Hunter is standing back.
Post by
nautiness
Right, but if you actually read the thread instead of focusing on my post, you'd see most people who are 'for' the melee hunter spec want it more or less to be the same as rogues. Look, simple as this; Hunters in WoW are meant to be ranged with their pets; a Ranger in the Warcraft Lore, was both a long ranged fighter and a close up one, but that is different from a hunter. Bottom line; I'll stay ranged, you go melee, have fun, and enjoy your play style.
Edit: By the way, that's why I kept it to the one line answer, no point in arguing with other people who don't want to actually argue, just try to make you see things there way.
actually Ive never said boo about being a rogue.. Im advocating more traps, faster cooldowns on them. and some actual " survival skills" I wouldnt mind the melee attacks having some degree of aid in slowing dps done VS me.. I dont really think I need a high DPS melee mash of buttons.. just would like to see traps become more viable as a SOLE means of main DPS.
and im willing to take a big nerf to ranged attacks to get it..
some examples of things id like to see with survival.
hidden traps( from even rogues, yes if this is my sole means of DPS it makes little sense for them to be dispeled in seconds by ONE class, if im a dedicated trapper I should be able to know how to hide traps.)
tangle-weapons- not a disarm perse but possibly a melee counter attack, so when the wrecking ball comes with all cooldowns poped .. you can at lease slow the butt kicking a bit for your traps to tick a bit.
multiple traps- not 10 frost traps.. but one of each trap I have with a timer on them ( Im in a doorway and have laid out all my traps, IM now faking looking like a MM hunter tryin to lure that war into my trap,.. the rogue sneaks up and hits the traps so I start spamming out the ones that have been poped , the rogue now has to get to me while im running,, I get slowed, now hes on me I drop " dust trap " to blind him and run more.. cause my DPS with a bow is weak my melee DPS is mostly counters to I dont get mauled. Ive got to spend some time making damage from my traps and getting away.
survival implies a degree of self preservation. it makes sense to have some skills based around that that are actually useful.. a 51 point "dust trap" that blinds and causes choking.. a DOT..oh my! much like bleeding maybe?
with the amount of traps we have it could be possible to have a viable spec "trapper" with a 51 point skill.
see the example?
not a rogue... rogues are not trapping and kiting.. theyre stabing and sneaking..
the PVE Version for leuitinet:
working in concert with the tank as traps either DONT cause TPS.. or can be Misdirected maybe? ( some potential SV talent mods?)
you set traps in a doorway the tank pulls the mob .. taunts them the traps hit and begin your DPS. since your positioning doesnt effect your DPS and your traps are your "DOT" main DPS.. you get to plink with your under skilled ranged attacks ( standard ones) then rush in and drop your mass of traps again... back out and plink more. on bosses.. vs most trash your DOT dps from the trap is close to done by the time the group burns them down. IE your investing your DPS on postioning the mobs and working with the tank ( HELLO TEAMWORK!)
figure locks reapply DOTS often.. its little difference and with the cost of your traps being your main DPS.. having that small bit of attionial risk since your a MID ranged player ( your not full ranged so not at the furthest reach, nor are you true melee, your balanced between the two) yes.. balanced:P
given these options having a trapper would be viable for both PVE and PVP.
of course Im one of the "crazy people" who think options in games keep them dynamic. having seen paladins with melee in other online RPG games. warriors ( barbarians) with AOE shouts, mages with "melee" skill ( spellswords) the concept isnt foreign to me.. Im sure many of the older gamers are familuar with diablo, guildwars, everquest, ultima online, elder scrolls etc etc
Post by
Adamsm
not a rogue... rogues are not trapping and kiting.. theyre stabing and sneaking..And sapping and stunning.
Post by
leuitinet
Nautiness... You want to rush in and drop traps for DPS, be ready to die. Mobs yeah sure, maybe.
But think bout this. There are only 3, yes 3, types of traps. Fire, Ice, and Nature.
Fire: Immo and Explosive
Ice: Frost and Ice
Nature: Snake
You run up and drop Explosive/Frost/Snake before the tank gets aggro you gonna have mobs gunning for you. You need a Pally tank for mobs. Tank can pull, yeah thats fine, but if a pat comes wondering by they hit the outside of the AoE traps they gonna come running in. By that time your traps are down, and you gotta run in and reset. Thats wasted time and less DPS. This will wipe when it comes to DPS races
Now for Bosses. There are alot of frontal AoEs that alot of bosses have. You want the tank to turn the boss, thats fine it works. But with bosses like Ony, you risk getting punted or AoE'd. Yeah the tank works harder to make sure another 'melee' class doesnt die. But who else works to keep ppl alive?
HEALERS!
They have to keep their eyes opened for that Hunter running back and forth. If that Hunter dies, there is less DPS, and in DPS race bosses, a group cant afford that loss. You cant have that. Its stupid and has no place in the mechanics of how things work
PvP that might be a different story. But again multi-traps is OP and shouldnt be allowed.
Post by
497924
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, you can already drop all three of traps per cooldown heh.
Post by
leuitinet
But again multi-traps is OP and should be allowed.
This is total win.
Sry that was to be
shouldnt
not should.
We Hunters would make short work of any class that wouldnt get away from the traps. Think how easy it would be to keep someone in the Frost and Explosive trap AoE. Add snakes and you wont have to use much to get them down. Its broken. And glyphing traps would make it that much worse. And im tired of hearing QQ about how OP Hunters are.
Dont get me wrong I'd love all the changes that have been thought of. But if they all went live Hunters would be the laughing stock of WoW. It would make me want to stop playing my Hunter, and I like my Hunter way too much.
Post by
561748
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Cambo
Melee hunters is a silly idea.
Post by
nautiness
read above
"working in concert with the tank as traps either DONT cause TPS.. or can be Misdirected maybe?" ( some potential SV talent mods?)
I did say something about an additional trap right?
"dust trap"
so let me make sure I understand you.. your saying traps are OP?
simular to arms warriors? really? havent seen a single arms warrior drop traps and kite..
Post by
leuitinet
readI did say something about an additional trap right?
"dust trap"
so let me make sure I understand you.. your saying traps are OP?
First thing. Am I saying traps are OP? Yes. Its possible to have 2 traps out but not for long. Traps last 30secs, and have a 30sec CD. As SV that CD is reduced to 26sec. This means that for 4 secs you have 2 traps. And unless you time it all out, its a waste. Why? Black Arrow shares the trap CD, and is, IMO more useful if it can be used early instead of later cuz you wanted to traps.
Now for the Dust Trap. Adding this makes 4 total types of traps. With 4 traps down at one time the Hunter will destroy anyone that sets them off.Ive already went thru this, and adding another trap into the scenerio would only make my point again. But if I must I must.
WSG. You're in the tunnel and you have Snake, Dust, Frost, and Explosive Traps down. That lone Warrior comes running up the tunnel and hits all the traps. Now they are slowed by the Frost, and rooted for 4secs due to entrapment, have snakes dropping poisons on them, has burst into flames because they stepped on a landmine, sorta speak, and is wondering around like an idiot because they have dust in their eyes.
Thats all from the traps. Now lets add the Hunter. Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, Explosive Shot with Lock and Load proc, Steady Shot, and Auto Shots (Rapid Fire is optional).
Now the pet. most ppl like the Spider for PvP. Or the Ravager. Let's use the Rav shall we. The Rav racial is not only a stun, but it does good pet dmg also. Once that Warrior shakes the dust out of their face, gets off the Frost Trap AoE, You hit them with Con. Shot, than the Rav stuns again for 4 secs. The Warrior is dead by now, unless its prot, but hey its just a scenerio.
That is why 3-4 traps at one time cant be used. Its ridiculous. The PvE aspect would work either. You are wasting too much movement on trap placement. That time in motion is a loss in DPS, and those numbers are important. Again DPS boss fights cant afford to have a Hunter running in and out.
Im going to assume you dont have a Hunter or it isnt high enough to see that what your saying wont work. Would it be a cool idea? Hell yeah it would, and Id love the power of all those traps. But its gonna throw the balance of in PvP, and take away from Hunter Power in PvE.
Sorry for WoT
Post by
Tany
Leuitinet you are making valid points, but I think you missed mine. You want to play a hunter as it is now, cool, Keep the Marks Tree as IS. No hunter can now complain that they are ranged, want stay at range, etc.
But use Blizz CAN use the Survival tree to expand the play-style of the hunter class. I'm not saying augment melee without penalty as you have pointed that would imbalance the class tremendously. I suggested making a play style that would fit PvE and PvP. My idea of a Surv hunter would HAVE to "engage" and "disengage" an NPC or player to be succesful.
Look at the druid class. You want to play ranged, go Balanced, you want to play melee, go Feral. I believe Shaman have the same option.
But what class is there that uses the mechanics of both? This would be an opportunity to introduce a whole new style of game play. In this scenario, a Surv Hunter that stayed in range would do crap dps, and if that same hunter stayed melee, he'd do crap dps. But if this same hunter knew how to engage and disengage respectively, drop traps and stack dots, they could do comparative dps of the other hunter trees!
You could argue that NO hunter or player would want to have to run in and out like that. You could argue that balancing would be too difficult. I don't know. But it would offer a NEW type and challenging game-play that does not exist currently in WoW.
Post by
Adamsm
If your going to have a melee hunter, make it a Beast Master spec, not Survival.
Post by
Interest
If your going to have a melee hunter, make it a Beast Master spec, not Survival.
THIS.
Post by
nautiness
no one is getting ONE SHOTTED with traps... sorry.. if you are.. you really need to work on your class/gear/spec..
being OP with 4 traps.. ( hmm sins in diablo, rangers in guildwars) both where never OP..
actually.. I just got my BC hunter restored. I played him in arena horde side as well as raided through black temple. 3 years playing him as a main.. I think I have the dyamics.
the point here is the expansion of the game in ways it already is for other "balanced" classes.. what better way to open up potentials than for all classes to have greater options of play? really we can keep upping the level cap.. adding in more content... but truely for the game to evolve the core of it has to change slightly consistantly
Post by
JaguarZ
@Tany:
You're talking about Trap Dancing with less ranged damage (due to damage decreases) and more trap damage (due to damage increases that dropped ranged damage).
This does not work at all.
The traps would be much too powerful.
Blizzard blues have already said they can't just up pet damage to balance out BM spec because it becomes an automatic dps increase where the player doesn't have to think about it. This is only slightly more active than that.
Heck it's pretty close to Shaman totems, actually.
You won't be seeing large increases in totem damage because once they're out they're pretty passive for the player, only location matters.
Passive damage abilities (even ones that are passive once set) are very limited.
Notice the aoes in the game are mostly channeled or fairly slow cast spells to balance out the damage output by immobility. AoEs that are fast and allow mobility (Death and Decay, consecrate) have longer cool downs, lower damage per second than the long casts / channels, and usually a higher cost.
We make ourselves imba within the rules.
The rules are balanced carefully to minimize imba.
You have the most unique character class in the game as it has the least overlap with other classes ( a druid can't be you, you do physical damage at range where everyone else is spell damage ).
You want a different feel to your hunter than the game allows or has really hinted at for your role.
You also want to do it by completely changing a tree that a lot of people use for how it is now.
What you're wanting to play is not a hunter. You want something else.
Sounds to me like you're tired of your class so I suggest you roll another to feel a different style out.
Post by
543468
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
leuitinet
Leuitinet you are making valid points, but I think you missed mine. You want to play a hunter as it is now, cool, Keep the Marks Tree as IS. No hunter can now complain that they are ranged, want stay at range, etc.
But use Blizz CAN use the Survival tree to expand the play-style of the hunter class. I'm not saying augment melee without penalty as you have pointed that would imbalance the class tremendously. I suggested making a play style that would fit PvE and PvP. My idea of a Surv hunter would HAVE to "engage" and "disengage" an NPC or player to be succesful.
Look at the druid class. You want to play ranged, go Balanced, you want to play melee, go Feral. I believe Shaman have the same option.
But what class is there that uses the mechanics of both? This would be an opportunity to introduce a whole new style of game play. In this scenario, a Surv Hunter that stayed in range would do crap dps, and if that same hunter stayed melee, he'd do crap dps. But if this same hunter knew how to engage and disengage respectively, drop traps and stack dots, they could do comparative dps of the other hunter trees!
You could argue that NO hunter or player would want to have to run in and out like that. You could argue that balancing would be too difficult. I don't know. But it would offer a NEW type and challenging game-play that does not exist currently in WoW.
I play like that. I will throw all my shots, and if I get in melee I let my melee attacks and traps down, than Dis back to
where I belong
. The style of play is there, but most Hunters dont use this, because its not how Hunters are to be played. Druids are more in tune with all aspects of nature than Hunters, so it makes sence for them to be so flexible. Shaman are similar, but they deal with the elements and spiritual connections. Hunters dont have that.
@Nautiness,
THIS IS WOW NOT DIABLO OR GUILD WARS!
If Blizz 'evolves' the Hunter potential, than they have to do it with other classes. These 'slight changes' will call for nerfs if these changes go live. More nerfs, which might cause issues, than there will be buffs. More buffs will lead to someone finding an exploit, than QQ and more nerfs. See where Im goin with this? 'Slight changes' can have
major
effects.
And Adamsm is right, too
Post by
Adamsm
And Adamsm is right, tooHeh, if only more people would realize that lol.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.