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Is it okay NOT to heal in order to teach a lesson?
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Post by
196101
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321419
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Post by
69003
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Post by
kamodius
Before we start, we need to be clear on what the job of a DPS class is. It is not to do as much DPS as humanly possible. That’s easy. The job of a DPS class is to do as much damage as possible without pulling aggro. That’s hard.
What this means is that good DPS pays attention to the fight, and to any add-ons available to help (such as Omen, my threat meter of choice). The skill of a DPS player is measured not by how much damage he did overall, and not by how much damage per second he did, but by whether he got as close as he could to the threat cap without going over it.
Imagine a tank who has generated 1000 threat on a mob, and two DPSers. DPSer A has an innate ability that reduces all base threat he generates by 29% (as cats do). DPSer B does not have any threat modifiers at all. Both are melee DPS, and so subject to the 10% rule (see Part 2 of this guide).
DPSer A generates 1300 threat on the mob in five seconds (260 DPS).
DPSer B generates 1099 threat on the mob in five seconds (220 DPS).
Who did better?
The answer is DPSer B. Even though he did 40 less DPS than A, if he had generated 1 more point of threat he would have pulled aggro. He did the very best damage he could safely do under the circumstances. DPSer A, on the other hand, stopped 92 threat away from pulling aggro. That’s extra damage he could have safely dealt, but didn’t. And of course it would be even worse if DPSer A generated 1400 threat on the mob in 5 seconds (400 DPS) – sure he did 400 DPS, but he also just pulled aggro.
Again, A may have helped his party more (he did more damage), but he helped less than he could have. B helped less but did the absolute best he could do, given his class and spec.
B would not be doing anybody any favors if he decided to do more damage (and thus pull aggro) to be more "helpful." That's not helpful, it's dumb
.This is pretty much what I pay attention to.
From a tank's perspective, it's pretty easy to see when someone overaggros me (which doesn't happen alot) by mistake or because they don't care.
Example 1: I see a warlock go from nothing to past me in aggro in 3 seconds, and I just saw Incinerate go flying by me; Probably he hit a big crit, then hit a Conflag, which also crit. Bad luck, but okay, I'll taunt it off. If it happens again, I'll ask him/her to maybe give me a few more seconds next time.
Example 2: First pull in an instance, we barely get buffs done and the Fury warrior doesn't wait for my consecrate before Intercepting his way in and mashing Whirlwind (or Arms with Bladestorm, take your pick). I'll ask nicely... once.
Example 3: Mages (I have an 80 mage): If I see Blizzard/Flamestrike before I've hit a mob, I'm not wasting a taunt on you. FYI
From a healer's perspective (77 disc priest and 65 tree druid): The only thing that dictates whether or not you get heals is the level of my HealyJuice™ (commonly referred to as mana). My priorities narrow at an inverse rate to the size of my remaining mana. If the tank's fine, I'm fine, then I'll throw heals to you dps as much as possible, hell, even to keep you topped up if you're standing in fire.
However
, as my mana bar drops, my priority becomes the top dps that isn't being stupid, the tank, and myself. As it drops further still, my priority is the tank and myself.
I play a tank and healers because of the challenge. Big DPS numbers are fun (mm, 14k Death Strike crits) but there's a certain level of challenge and complexity missing.
TL;DR version: I'll generally heal everyone in a heroic regardless of fire-standing-in-ness as long as my mana allows. If you're being over the top stupid, you're going to end up on your own.
Post by
Rouen
I don't care if DPS constantly pull aggro in heroics. At least it's not boring that way.
I know how a fight SHOULD go, but if the DPS goes crazy, my daily heroic becomes practice. I think it's fun trying to heal DPS with aggro.
That doesn't mean I don't understand where you are coming from. I'd say let them die if it's really giving you a hard time or you're in a foul mood.
Post by
Vindeta
1: If the tank dies, its the healers fault
2: If the healer dies, its the tanks fault
3: If the dps dies, its their own dam fault (special circumstances fall into this catagory)
Post by
370104
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Post by
ande9249
One of the things is that I generally dont judge dps for pulling the red aggro dot.....until they get damaged for it.
many times I will see a warlock pull something off the tank, the mob starts crossing the distance and dies halfway to the warlock......I call that decent dps, he is probably comfortable enough to know how quickly a mob will die and can tell wether he needs to drop his aggro or not.
Othertimes red dot goes onto a Spriest, gets halfway and the starts walking back to the tank, honestly, thats like 6 sec of that mob doing no damage at all....talk about helping the tank mitigate damage......
sometimes dps is channeling, sometimes it is finishing a casting bar, so the aggro dot lasting for more than 3 sec is not horrbile, just as long as they know not to get damaged by it, i dont care.....
Post by
312504
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Post by
skribs
If you're zerging the content, then DPS pulling aggro is inevitable. My warlock in all greens and blues pulls aggro off tanks with >35k HP, and I'm glad my healers heal me when I do. Omen is one thing, but its much more difficult to make sure my AoE aggro is down.
If the DPS is pulling aggro off single target, it means the tank isn't generating enough threat - plain and simple. Unless it was the first 3 seconds a fight, it is the tank's fault and you should heal the DPS.
If it's harder content (e.g. the hill on PoS) then yes, practice triage. Those adds are supposed to be single-targetted down and there should be a skull. If this isn't mentioned+marked, blame the tank or party leader. If it is mentioned and aggro is lost on skull blame the tank, if aggro is lost on another target to DPS blame them, and if aggro is grabbed by the healer then blame the tank.
If people stand in the fire you have every right to let them die. Keep in mind though that while your goal is to teach them a lesson, it can also result in these consequences:
If too many stand in fires and you let them die, too many people die. Causes a wipe.
Person standing in fire yells at the healers for "not having enough heals."
Other healers heal those people, and you do less HPS while nobody learns their lesson.
You spend more mana and casting time rezzing and rebuffing the person than you would have healing them, and the fights take longer with lack of DPS
That said, in lower level stuff if someone makes me mad - I let them die and refuse to rez them. The run back really teaches them (this is DPS pulling while tank is 100 yards back, ninja loot, etc)
Post by
dhampir1989
Ive not healed the tank, let a DPS tank, and downed the boss in order to teach a lesson before.
Post by
529779
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517094
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Post by
septor
Is it okay NOT to heal in order to teach a lesson?
If the lesson is to not buy milk after the expiration date: yes.
Otherwise, no.
Post by
312504
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Post by
kamodius
If the DPS is pulling aggro off single target, it means the tank isn't generating enough threat - plain and simple. Unless it was the first 3 seconds a fight, it is the tank's fault and you should heal the DPS.
That's a little general.
In my opinion, it's not my job as tank to scramble my ass off to stay ahead of the dps. It's up to the dps not to pass me. A lot of dps these days think that they should be allowed to go hog wild with no reservations and if I can't keep up (which I can, by the way, that's not the point; lots of tanks can't), then I'm a fail tank.
I was always given to understand the following:
Assuming that the healer has mana, the tank sets the pace.
If the healer's out of mana, you wait for the healer.
dps can wait, and if they pull off you, it's their fault.
Wiping and arguing about any of the above takes more time than just not pew-pewing for 4-5 seconds.
Clearly this depends on the tank pulling a reasonable amount of threat, but they've made it so easy (especially with paladins) that I was holding threat, for the most part, against a regular warlock group-mate of mine when she had well over a tier's worth of gear over me. How? Because she managed her threat output.
All that being said, it's no wonder that there's a tank shortage these days. I would say that 9 runs out of 10 I have at least one dps pushing, or saying "Hey, you're geared, pull more. C'mon, faster, faster, go go go."
To which I say, "Okay, go ahead and pull... good luck with that."
TL;DR - dps has the easiest job in the group. Quit complaining.
Post by
dhampir1989
If the dps is targeting the tank's target and pulls
OR if the dps is following the marked kill order and pulls
THEN the DPS isn't doing it right
Fixed.
Threat is the DPS's concern.
While tanks should produce as much as possible, it's the DPS's job to make sure they stay under 110/130% of the tank on threat dependant on range. DPS have eo play to the tank's level, not vice versa.
Post by
kamodius
If the dps is targeting the tank's target and pulls
OR if the dps is following the marked kill order and pulls
THEN the DPS isn't doing it right
Fixed.
Threat is the DPS's concern.
While tanks should produce as much as possible, it's the DPS's job to make sure they stay under 110/130% of the tank on threat dependant on range. DPS have eo play to the tank's level, not vice versa.
You quoted me as I was rewriting. I basically said the same thing, lol.
Post by
xenoblad
You might learn the most when you are with those who know the least.
(if you're a healer atleast)
My point is that I feel that I have vastly increased my mana effeciancy and my reaction time because of all the bad players who have brought countless uneccesary unintentional challanges to me.
Since my main is a disc priest I usually find fun ways to counter act the enviroment at it's worst during horrible 5 mans.
Things like fear warding 2min and 50 seconds before the actual fear or mass dispelling a whole scrutiny of debuffs my dps just so happen to get. Using Power infusion when each dps is agroed to a mob to heal them a break neck speeds.
The list goes on.
My favorite trick so far is timing multiple shields so they all break at the same time and I get a huge mana bonus.
I'd say bring on the noobs! I'm not afraid of a chalange
PS: usually dps stop pulling agro when I complain about being out of combat and when I encorage them to pull agro more often. (damn cowards start considering their actions only when I start having fun)
EDIT: man I suck at spelling XD
Post by
ShadowSerpent
1: If the tank dies, its the healers fault
2: If the healer dies, its the tanks fault
3: If the dps dies, its their own dam fault (special circumstances fall into this catagory)
While this is not always the truth -like when a tank just pulls way too many, a dps gets knocked back into a patrol he couldn't have seen, or the healer stays in the bad stuff- 9/10 times this is my mantra as well. I've even said to healers with low mana pools to forget about healing me, if I have threat it's my own damn fault and we shouldn't wipe over it.
When I am healing, I usually heal all the time unless they keep making the same mistakes -like a squishy dk dps refusing to get out of frost presence and getting aggro every pull, or people standing still in the bad stuff every time- even then I try to remain civil, ask them to change, explain the tactics in a way that makes them think I'm just reminding them. Then, when all that fails and I've lost my patience, I blacklist them.
When I am tanking, I always save 1 taunt CD just in case I screw something up and the healer gets aggro. If this means I can't taunt a mob off a dps, I ignore them untill another taunt comes off CD. If they die from it, they shouldn't have pulled aggro in the first place (and if they repeat I'll /rage). If they can handle their mob, I don't have a problem with it. Sometimes it's even better, like ande9249 said.
Even the best players can make mistakes, but a (future)pro learns from them, knows when to take advice seriously, and doesn't hit his head on the same rock every single time. My definition of a noob is not someone with bad gear and lack of knowledge, it's someone who refuses to learn how to play the game - and stubborn people will not get healed!
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