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10.2.5
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There should now be NO complaints about GearScore the addon
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Post by
Arcolite
There was a mage in a guild that I was in that had 5k gs but only pulled 2k as anything.
Gear score can't prevent people like from being in your group :<
Exactly! It's not uncommon to see sub 5k GS people out dps 5.5k GS people.
It means nothing. It doesn't account for everything and shouldn't be used as a enforcement mechanism. It's a guideline, nothing more.
Post by
Cambo
this addon should have never been created.
First we had the DPS debacle:
"LFM DPS 25 Naxx, must pull 5K+ dps'
I still struggle to calculate my DPS into a figure.
Now we have the GS nazi's (no offence to any Germans or Jews)
What's next?
"LFM *NEW RAID* 25, must have /played 64531 days, and subscribe to WoW magazine"
I would LOVE to see someone pulling a group together in trade, with funny requirements.
"....must have Spring Circlet equipped"
Post by
Rubendesmet619
/agree
People whine for the sake of whining, in vanilla it was simple, you wanted to raid, you joined a guild
In TBC people asked for t5 gear for Karazhan
At the start of WotlK people asked for achievements
Now they ask for gearscore.
And about any of the above people have been whining.
I say keep going, it won't help #$%^ anyway.
Post by
Davidson
People complain about GS because they were denied a raid because their score was too low.
Then they bring in anecdotal evidence by saying that their friend's cousin who has a GS of 3000 does 8K dps, so GS means nothing. (not mentioned that 8K dps was in a 25man raid with all buffs and one AOE trash and it was really closer to 6K).
Not true. People complain about GS being enforced for raids that don't need GS. Asking for 5k GS to do Naxx10 is unreasonable.
Someone with 3k GS wouldn't/shouldn't expect to get into raids easily. It's not hard to farm heroics and get Tier9.
Personally when I raid lead I prefer to have lower dps people who stay alive and know the tactics than a group of high gear/dps and that are agro nubsthat don't move out of the ouchies.
More anecdotal evidence, 5K GS for Naxx10? I've never seen anyone require anything near that on my server. If you're trying to run Naxx10 right now, you're lucky if you get anyone.
People with low GS bring up anecdotal evidence (and often exaggerated) to try to discredit people that won't let them into their raids. They think of the one (or few times) that someone with a lower GS out-dps'd someone with higher GS or when someone with high GS sucked.
What they are ignoring is the overwhelming majority of times where someone with high GS...does high DPS. Or when someone with high GS is good. Or when someone with low GS is bad. Or when someone with low GS can't do good DPS.
If you're a raid leader and you're making a PUG and you have 9 people whispering you with 4.5K GS and 9 other people whispering you with 3.5K GS...what are you going to do? I will tell you with 95% confidence that a larger amount of people with higher GS will be good than bad. And that a larger amount of people with lower GS will be bad than good.
Post by
skribs
I agree that a higher amount of people with high GS will be good than bad. I'm not talking about the gear you can get by doing 5-mans, but if you're ICC geared chances are you know enough to be doing that content (although if you're in a good guild you still can be carried).
However, I disagree that a higher amount of low GS players are bad than good. At this point you have those who couldn't pull their weight in raids, people who don't have much time to raid but may be very good, old mains or alts (slightly different context for them) of good raiders, and fresh 80s with a high aptitude for learning. My shaman is in all naxx 10/sarth 25 gear, and while I wouldn't bring her to ICC (she wouldn't do enough HPS and would still go OOM) I will bet I can outheal some of the people I see in ICC.
However, there is still likely a higher ratio of good-bad players the higher the GS is. And you bring up a good point, if you have 30 people whispering you, in the time it takes to look up and/or interview them all, you'll have impatient members leaving the raid. But for most realms, you dont get 30 whispers at once and you've got time to check.
But, anecdotal evidence really is all you can go by. There's no way I know of to do a parse of GS vs. DPS on say Festergut for me to make a good call on it. You can go look at the top 20 on sites and check their GS, but the top 20 are going to be the best geared with the most skill, and its a skewed statistic. My warlock with a 1519 on wow-heroes (blues and greens) does ~3.5k DPS on most bosses. I've seen warlocks in full 200-232 epics doing 2200, and I also know when I'm in that gear I'll be doing much more. The purpose of the anecdotal evidence is to provide evidence of problems with the GS system.
However, the anecdotal evidence just proves that certain players fail, and says nothing about the addon. The addon is just another tool to prove that they fail (e.g. high GS outdone by those with low GS, people requiring too high GS for the content).
Post by
Arcolite
More anecdotal evidence, 5K GS for Naxx10? I've never seen anyone require anything near that on my server. If you're trying to run Naxx10 right now, you're lucky if you get anyone.
People with low GS bring up anecdotal evidence (and often exaggerated) to try to discredit people that won't let them into their raids. They think of the one (or few times) that someone with a lower GS out-dps'd someone with higher GS or when someone with high GS sucked.
What they are ignoring is the overwhelming majority of times where someone with high GS...does high DPS. Or when someone with high GS is good. Or when someone with low GS is bad. Or when someone with low GS can't do good DPS.
If you're a raid leader and you're making a PUG and you have 9 people whispering you with 4.5K GS and 9 other people whispering you with 3.5K GS...what are you going to do? I will tell you with 95% confidence that a larger amount of people with higher GS will be good than bad. And that a larger amount of people with lower GS will be bad than good.
Mine isn't actually anecdotal, it's fact. Everytime the Weekly Raid boss is Naxx or Uld then the GS reqs are 5k+ to join most groups. That's completely unreasonable. I had one last night that I should have screenshotted. 5k GS for The Eye! A Burning Crusade raid FFS.
I have never been turned down for a group, I have good gear and I know how to talk to people. GS still bothers the crap out of me.
I completely understand why it's used, but what the majority of people are forgetting is that everyone was new once. Everyone had bad gear once. If we completely ignore the new players then they'll never learn.
If I'm putting a raid together I'd actually have a mix of high and low. While I admit, High end people will most likely to perform better overall, they're also more likely to bugger off first and leave the group shafted? Low gearscore people that are usually grateful for their chance.
Post by
Davidson
However, I disagree that a higher amount of low GS players are bad than good. At this point you have those who couldn't pull their weight in raids, people who don't have much time to raid but may be very good, old mains or alts (slightly different context for them) of good raiders, and fresh 80s with a high aptitude for learning. My shaman is in all naxx 10/sarth 25 gear, and while I wouldn't bring her to ICC (she wouldn't do enough HPS and would still go OOM) I will bet I can outheal some of the people I see in ICC.
You bring up some good points, and I'm not interested in arguing. I'm just saying that I have no doubt that you could probably outheal people in ICC. I also have no doubt some can outheal you too. Is it 50/50? Who knows. But let's say your GS is 3500 and 4500 for ICC. Lets say you can outheal 25% of those people with 4500 GS. That's good right? That's like thousands or hundreds of thousands of people right? But what you are ignoring is that the other 75% will outheal you. And I rather take a chance and roll the dice with the 75% than 25%.
Post by
Davidson
Mine isn't actually anecdotal, it's fact. Everytime the Weekly Raid boss is Naxx or Uld then the GS reqs are 5k+ to join most groups. That's completely unreasonable. I had one last night that I should have screenshotted. 5k GS for The Eye! A Burning Crusade raid FFS.
Well, if that happens every week, then they must be successful enough and actually get players with 5K+ GS to every week to clear Naxx (snicker). Is 5K required? of course not, people cleared Naxx upon launch of WoTLK.
But maybe the Leader wants the run done in 30 minutes. Maybe he knows 1/2 the people will be AFK (bc, well, it's Naxx right?). Maybe he knows 1 wipe will end the PuG, so he overcompensates. So, at that point, maybe 5K is required for his raid, and apparently if he's doing it every week, it works. So, unless you're the one that is begging to get into a Naxx raid...I don't see what the issue is...
Also, I will admit that you will see odd things with GS. For example, I've never DPS'd before (okay, 1 time). But I've done enough LFD to get the best gear you can possible get from Emblems (Triumph) and 5 man drops when I tanked (rolled on Ospec). In addition, by tanking ICC, I was passed a bunch of gear because it was going to be sharded (2h sword, chest, boots, cape, etc). I put on all my gear and I was surprised to be 5100 GS. Haha, I tried DPSing and I couldn't figure out why my DPS was like 100. Oh yea, it was because my 2h sword skill was like 30/400.
So, GS isn't this magically number, but I do like how we have a lot more tools now that we did in the past for evaluation. Dude, back in Vanilla, you just had no idea how much damage people were doing. Everything was based on how many purples you had. And in 40 man raids, there was a lot of carrying...
Post by
Arcolite
Well, if that happens every week, then they must be successful enough and actually get players with 5K+ GS to every week to clear Naxx (snicker). Is 5K required? of course not, people cleared Naxx upon launch of WoTLK.
But maybe the Leader wants the run done in 30 minutes. Maybe he knows 1/2 the people will be AFK (bc, well, it's Naxx right?). Maybe he knows 1 wipe will end the PuG, so he overcompensates. So, at that point, maybe 5K is required for his raid, and apparently if he's doing it every week, it works. So, unless you're the one that is begging to get into a Naxx raid...I don't see what the issue is...
Your kind of missing my point. The issue is that 5k GS isn't a requirement by any stretch of the imagination. Using /gs properly you can see that 4.5k is good enough for T9.2 which is ToC10 Heroic and ToC25. Even 4k is good enough to ToC10 Normal. That means that 5k GS is vastly overkill for Naxx, Uld or VoA.
Even if you took 4.5k GS people, you would still get the raid done in 30mins. Those people still vastly outgear the instance. Taking anyone with a gearscore of between 4.2k-5k isn't carrying them. They already overgear the instance, they just aren't as far long the content as you are. I'd even go as far as say that you probably carry more Highly geared people than you do Lower geared people. High GS people coast long on their GS. Low GS people have to prove their worth these days.
I have 5300 GS. I don't have a problem getting groups. I just have a hatred for lazy raid leaders who use GS excessively on content where it really isn't needed. Sure, filter out 3k people, but to _require_ a ICC10 lvl gearscore for T7 and 8 content is crazy.
Post by
Davidson
Your kind of missing my point. The issue is that 5k GS isn't a requirement by any stretch of the imagination. Using /gs properly you can see that 4.5k is good enough for T9.2 which is ToC10 Heroic and ToC25. Even 4k is good enough to ToC10 Normal. That means that 5k GS is vastly overkill for Naxx, Uld or VoA.
Even if you took 4.5k GS people, you would still get the raid done in 30mins. Those people still vastly outgear the instance. Taking anyone with a gearscore of between 4.2k-5k isn't carrying them. They already overgear the instance, they just aren't as far long the content as you are. I'd even go as far as say that you probably carry more Highly geared people than you do Lower geared people. High GS people coast long on their GS. Low GS people have to prove their worth these days.
I have 5300 GS. I don't have a problem getting groups. I just have a hatred for lazy raid leaders who use GS excessively on content where it really isn't needed. Sure, filter out 3k people, but to _require_ a ICC10 lvl gearscore for T7 and 8 content is crazy.
I never had an issue with group either. I just recently installed GS because I started leading ICC pugs and it was better way of inviting people than looking at their name and asking..."So..um..you good?"
The thing is...low GS people have to prove their worth to GS-crazy raid leaders...yes, unfortunately. But isn't it possible to get a pretty high GS (high enough for ICC) just by doing the LFD, 5 mans? So, is it really the lazy raid leader or the lazy person that isn't done with farming the 5 mans...
Post by
Arcolite
I never had an issue with group either. I just recently installed GS because I started leading ICC pugs and it was better way of inviting people than looking at their name and asking..."So..um..you good?"
The thing is...low GS people have to prove their worth to GS-crazy raid leaders...yes, unfortunately. But isn't it possible to get a pretty high GS (high enough for ICC) just by doing the LFD, 5 mans? So, is it really the lazy raid leader or the lazy person that isn't done with farming the 5 mans...
You can get about 4600-4800 farming LFD 5 Mans for Triumphs plus the new ICC Heroics, I've just done it on my Shaman. Most PUG Raid leaders want 5k+ and get a bit sniffy if your under 5k. Even more so if your an Alt without any Achievements.
Technically speaking, 4700 is fine for ICC10. It was tuned for T9 and that's also what /GS recommends for ilvl251 content. But try telling that to some of these raid leaders :p
Post by
298017
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Davidson
You can get about 4600-4800 farming LFD 5 Mans for Triumphs plus the new ICC Heroics, I've just done it on my Shaman. Most PUG Raid leaders want 5k+ and get a bit sniffy if your under 5k. Even more so if your an Alt without any Achievements.
Technically speaking, 4700 is fine for ICC10. It was tuned for T9 and that's also what /GS recommends for ilvl251 content. But try telling that to some of these raid leaders :p
4700 could be fine, but as a PUG Raid Leader, knowing that a few wipes will lead to /disband, do you really want a group of 4700 GS raiders and hope they are the overachieving types?
Post by
Arcolite
4700 could be fine, but as a PUG Raid Leader, knowing that a few wipes will lead to /disband, do you really want a group of 4700 GS raiders and hope they are the overachieving types?
I agree, although if I'm leading it wouldn't put me off just because someone had 4700 gs. I'd go as far to say that I'd even take a gamble on someone with just 4500. If they've gemmed, chanted and got their spec right then I'd be willing to take a chance on them. Not every sub 5k person is a complete spanner.
Post by
303152
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
93026
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Braevia
You can get about 4600-4800 farming LFD 5 Mans for Triumphs plus the new ICC Heroics, I've just done it on my Shaman. Most PUG Raid leaders want 5k+ and get a bit sniffy if your under 5k. Even more so if your an Alt without any Achievements.
Technically speaking, 4700 is fine for ICC10. It was tuned for T9 and that's also what /GS recommends for ilvl251 content. But try telling that to some of these raid leaders :p
4700 could be fine, but as a PUG Raid Leader, knowing that a few wipes will lead to /disband, do you really want a group of 4700 GS raiders and hope they are the overachieving types?
A PUG raid leader should know that their chances of one-shotting are basically zero to start with. Knowing this, you can weed out the fails based on actual merit by judging their performance on the first attempt.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
You can get about 4600-4800 farming LFD 5 Mans for Triumphs plus the new ICC Heroics, I've just done it on my Shaman. Most PUG Raid leaders want 5k+ and get a bit sniffy if your under 5k. Even more so if your an Alt without any Achievements.
Technically speaking, 4700 is fine for ICC10. It was tuned for T9 and that's also what /GS recommends for ilvl251 content. But try telling that to some of these raid leaders :p
4700 could be fine, but as a PUG Raid Leader, knowing that a few wipes will lead to /disband, do you really want a group of 4700 GS raiders and hope they are the overachieving types?
A PUG raid leader should know that their chances of one-shotting are basically zero to start with. Knowing this, you can weed out the fails based on actual merit by judging their performance on the first attempt.
Why do people not see that they're diferent kind of PuG's?
My PuG's are often made for 10/12 ICC.
Asking 5k gearscore at that point is rediculous, let alone 4.7k.
Post by
410715
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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