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PTR
10.2.5
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10.2.6
There should now be NO complaints about GearScore the addon
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Post by
303025
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
KittyKat77
I wonder if GS will ever reflect when an item is BiS for a class/spec but isn't the top item-level available for that slot.
Not that my 5300 gs paladin has trouble finding groups, but it's ridiculous having very good gear/performance, and still having to explain there's a good reason I don't feel the need to get rid of my ilevel 200 libram (yes, I realize there are different play styles and preferences, and some do find the 245 libram works OK, I haven't seen enough proof that it's *better* so far).
I don't have GS on my system, I really don't care, but since you have to "PST with GS and achieve" anymore to find a group on my server, I ask every so often "Can anyone tell me my GS please?"
I always get 3 tells within 20 seconds, and occasionally "Wanna heal for ____?"
Post by
303025
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
176080
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
How well does it rate talent specs that deviate from the "normal" for various reasons? For example, on an Unholy DK, the "cookie cutter" (last I checked, anyway) for lower gear is
this
, and for higher gear is
this
. However, I further edit that on my DK to pick up Imp Unholy Presence, because I value 15% run speed over 2% crit - its nothing you can quantify on a spreadsheet but it does make a difference - especially with the way my friend chain pulls. Another player might be specced like
this
for the sake of running heroics, where that spec is best for AoE DPS and chain pulls. So does it rate the second link as higher than those below it?
I think Gearscore is a great tool, the problem isn't GS it's how it is generally used. Sometimes you purposefully lower yourself from the theoretical maximum for the sake of getting a specific utility talent which is particularly useful.
Post by
Braevia
There will always be complaints, because this will always be an add-on for #$%^&*bags.
Yes, I can hear you protesting already "...b-b-but I'm not a $%^&*!bag, and I love GS!"
Well...here's the thing. Either you're delusional, or you're the 1% of people who will try to use this tool in a helpful way, rather than just LOLing at the new 80 who has the temerity to pop up in your random UTK group in (gasp!) mostly blues. Because lord knows that Heroic UTK is serious business, right? Or worse yet, some lowbies think they can sneak by into your Naxx raid for the weekly. I mean really! It's not like a TOC-geared group can just 5-man their way to Noth the Plaguebringer...oh wait. Nevermind.
These add-ons will always boil down to giving out-of-context information to fail PUG leaders who don't know anything about itemization, who will then use that information to make poor recruitment decisions and justify obnoxious behavior. It's an add-on for the guy who checks HP on a Paladin in Onyxia and complains that he's under 30k unbuffed...never realizing that he just health-checked a goddamn HOLY PALADIN, wasting the raid's time with his fail attempt at elitism.
It's called "elitism" because you have to be GOOD AT SOMETHING first. This add-on, and it's various imitators, are just a shortcut used by raiding failures with poor social skills (if they could deal with people, they'd be in a raiding guild).
Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
So, I'll take someone with 5300 GS over someone with 4500 GS (based on GS alone). However, if I had to choose between someone with 5300 and someone with 4800, then it's time to do additional digging (i.e. /gs and review raiding history, chants, gear for spec, talk with them, etc..). I've just seen too many people with slightly lower gearscores (within 500) outperform those with higher gearscores.
Last guild I was in, my score on wow-heroes was 2400, and the other 4 healers in the top 5 were 2500-2700. I was consistently top on healing. Just to further validate your point.
Post by
303025
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Braevia
It wastes more time on pointless gear checking than it saves, and it actually managed to reduce the ambient level of civility in the game (didn't think that was possible). The devs should be dragged behind a horse. I say this as someone with a reasonably high gearscore.
Post by
450879
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Braevia
It wastes more time on pointless gear checking than it saves, and it actually managed to reduce the ambient level of civility in the game (didn't think that was possible). The devs should be dragged behind a horse. I say this as someone with a reasonably high gearscore.
First off, the devs didn't make GS. Second, I dare you to put together a 25 man ToC pug without using GS. Just do it, then run it. Bravo if you take the time to track down 24 other good players, inspect them, and are able to turn away a large amount of applicants. Or, you could use GS and save yourself a lot of time by weeding out the people who just don't have the gear for the raid.
Reading comprehension FAIL.
The add-on was developed by SOMEONE. Those guys are "the devs" being referred to.
As for your second point...people put together PUGs without GS all the time; in fact, believe it or not, the game was quite playable for FIVE GODDAMN YEARS before the add-on became available. Just because you're a fail raid leader doesn't mean everyone is. If you can't be bothered to properly hunt for people, don't start a raid. You're going to fail anyway from taking the moron in 245 PVP gear over the properly itemized, enchanted, and gemmed casual raider in the 232s with ilevel 200 trinks that he knows how to use. Have fun wiping on Marrowgar, scrub.
Post by
skribs
Braevia seems to me to be one of those "if you use GS, you fail, because gear =/= skill." The fact is, like said above, GS is a good tool. Using avg ilvl as an example (because everyone knows ilvl, all the GS options e.g. Gear Score, Be-Imba, Wow-Heroes, Wowhead use a different ranking), let's say you got a player who's AIL is 246 and another player who's average is 209. I don't care how good the 209 player is, unless his class is broken he's not going to be capable of doing what we need in ICC unless he's being carried. His gear wont give the numbers you need. Now, that's not to say the 246 player has the skill, but in the equation of knowing your class, raid awareness, and gear; you've eliminated gear as a possible reason for this person being unable to pull his/her weight.
Now, for raid awareness or class knowledge, there is really no way to know how good the person is. You can get an idea by checking the way they geared and specced (best way I've found is to check how many pieces of gear have undesirable stats, how they gemmed, how close they are to caps, and their spec) but you can't tell the others. Since every class/spec has different ways in which their stats scale (e.g. one class may have 1500 more AP than the next class, despite same GS and gear choices) its hard to do cross-class comparison of gear-level without a GS addon. So when I look at someone the process is:
Gear Score
Spec
Gems/Enchants
Stat Caps (e.g. hit, expertise)
That gives me a real quick look at the person which actually tells me a lot, and anything I can get without talking to the person. I can then quickly weed out "talk to these guys to make sure they know their stuff" vs. "these guys are either too low geared or have failed in just their spec" which makes my job much easier. If I did not use GS, I'd have to either refer to acceptable stat levels on a per-class basis (much more than "hit cap" but i.e. how much AP should I have for Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, ICC) and I'd have to interview more people to weed out the bad or undergeared players.
Post by
Braevia
Nobody is going to be asking for invites with an average gear level of 209. New 80s will never see ilevel 219 raid gear; at best they might pick up a piece or two for TOC heroic. Old content runs are rare outside of the Weekly, so they'll be gearing with Triumph emblems. You'll be dealing with guys in 232/245 gear, except for a couple of pieces (bracers and boots will likely be lower unless they get lucky on ICC 5-man drops). So at this point, if you're juding on gearscore, you're talking about the ilevel of their Trinkets, which is beyond retarded. Lots of ilevel 200 trinkets are better for a given spec than their higher level equivalents.
As a mage, I have a 245 hood that I don't wear
because it would be a dps loss to break my 4-pc T9
. My Priest is drowning in useless 232+ trinkets that would do nothing for my Disc spec.
Also, GS isn't going to tell you anything about their spec, so I don't know what you're talking about there. If you can't be bothered with the work of properly vetting your raid members, maybe you shouldn't be leading raids.
If you want to have fun flashing meaningless numbers, get on XBOX Live and work on that gamerscore.
Post by
skribs
Braevia, I've seen people in greens and BoA gear ask for invites to a 3D zerg run for the mount. Just because it makes sense to get all the gear you can from 5-mans and then start doing end-level raids doesn't mean everyone will do that. People hit 80 and they want to raid, because that's the thing 80's do.
Also, GS isn't going to tell you anything about their spec, so I don't know what you're talking about there. If you can't be bothered with the work of properly vetting your raid members, maybe you shouldn't be leading raids.
I didn't say I used GS to check their spec. I said GS (or a related addon) would be the first thing I check, because its a 1-stop sum of their gear's level. It's
a
tool I use, not
the
tool I use. I'm not going to say "pass/fail" based on GS, but I will say "fail" based on GS if they are not up to an acceptable level.
Problems arise in GS from 2 circumstances: 1) People who have set the bar too high for the "acceptable level" or 2) People who use
only
GS to prove eligability. However, if GS is used as a quick check to make sure the character (not the player, but the toon in-game) is up to snuff for a given encounter, and is supplemented by checking to make sure the person is in the "right" gear (e.g. pve gear that has the right stats, appropriate caps, etc), checking the gem/enchant/spec choices of the player, and interviewing the player it is a great tool. So the problem isn't GS, the problem is the players who abuse it with the problems mentioned above.
Also if you check the OP, GS seems to rate based on spec now too.
EDIT: You seem to assume people either only use GS, or people don't use GS. You're forgetting about the third group - people who use GS but don't base their entire decision around it.
Post by
316801
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Braevia
Braevia, I've seen people in greens and BoA gear ask for invites to a 3D zerg run for the mount. Just because it makes sense to get all the gear you can from 5-mans and then start doing end-level raids doesn't mean everyone will do that. People hit 80 and they want to raid, because that's the thing 80's do.
You shouldn't need an add-on to recognize someone in heirlooms and greens. Hell, you probaby don't even need to inspect them; heirlooms are very obvious looking, and someone in mismatched greens and blues is going to have gear that doesn't visually match. All T9 looks alike, so it's easy to recognize someone who has done their Heroic homework, so to speak.
Problems arise in GS from 2 circumstances: 1) People who have set the bar too high for the "acceptable level" or 2) People who use
only
GS to prove eligability. However, if GS is used as a quick check to make sure the character (not the player, but the toon in-game) is up to snuff for a given encounter, and is supplemented by checking to make sure the person is in the "right" gear (e.g. pve gear that has the right stats, appropriate caps, etc), checking the gem/enchant/spec choices of the player, and interviewing the player it is a great tool. So the problem isn't GS, the problem is the players who abuse it with the problems mentioned above.
Also if you check the OP, GS seems to rate based on spec now too.
EDIT: You seem to assume people either only use GS, or people don't use GS. You're forgetting about the third group - people who use GS but don't base their entire decision around it.
I don't forget about the third group, I just don't care. They're too small to be given consideration. I hate GS add-ons because 99% of the time I encounter them, a #$%^&*bag is on the other end of it, wasting the raid's time. I don't want to hear some DPS' opinion of the tank's health. I don't want to witness some virtual &*!@ing contest of guys bragging about their ilevel. I want to raid, win, and move on. If we fail, we can look for blame/change tactics at that point. People are so focused on one-shotting on their first try that they waste enormous amounts of time (I've had to re-apply buffs!) beforehand. And then the pug STILL wipes on the first try. Gearscore just adds to the burden. It's an add-on FOR d-bags, BY d-bags. If a few non-d-bags managed to find a good use for it, that still doesn't justify its existence, any more than the comfort of a pair of cotton slacks justifies slavery, or timely train schedules justify the Nazis.
And yes, I apologize for the Godwin.
Post by
Zakkhar
Short comparison.
I know a hunter wearing the 245 hit trinket even though he is hit capped without it. It gives him nice gs.
I am wearing DMC:G in that slot, which while being ilvl200 has lower gs.
Yes, gs totally sucks.
PS: This hunter does 2.5k dps with 5.4k gs.
Post by
skribs
You shouldn't need an add-on to recognize someone in heirlooms and greens. Hell, you probaby don't even need to inspect them; heirlooms are very obvious looking, and someone in mismatched greens and blues is going to have gear that doesn't visually match. All T9 looks alike, so it's easy to recognize someone who has done their Heroic homework, so to speak.
You're taking the literal points I am making, and not reading the subtext. If someone is on an old alt who was in full-epics back in 3.0 (e.g. all ilvl 200 gear) I can check it by looking at each piece and looking at ilvl. But I can tell a lot faster with GS.
I don't forget about the third group, I just don't care. They're too small to be given consideration. I hate GS add-ons because 99% of the time I encounter them, a #$%^&*bag is on the other end of it, wasting the raid's time. I don't want to hear some DPS' opinion of the tank's health. I don't want to witness some virtual &*!@ing contest of guys bragging about their ilevel. I want to raid, win, and move on. If we fail, we can look for blame/change tactics at that point. People are so focused on one-shotting on their first try that they waste enormous amounts of time (I've had to re-apply buffs!) beforehand. And then the pug STILL wipes on the first try. Gearscore just adds to the burden. It's an add-on FOR d-bags, BY d-bags. If a few non-d-bags managed to find a good use for it, that still doesn't justify its existence, any more than the comfort of a pair of cotton slacks justifies slavery, or timely train schedules justify the Nazis.
So because you got butt-hurt by people in groups 1-2, you hate the add-on? Don't hate the addon because it gets abused, hate the people who abuse it. Seriously, it's a great tool
if used properly
but its a horrible tool
when abused
. People get too hung up on "OMG GS pwns" or "GS means nothing nub" but in reality, GS is great at what it is - a measurement of a player's gear.
Short comparison.
I know a hunter wearing the 245 hit trinket even though he is hit capped without it. It gives him nice gs.
I am wearing DMC:G in that slow, which while being ilvl200 has lower gs.
Yes, gs totally sucks.
PS: This hunter does 2.5k dps with 5.4k gs.
"There's a flaw in the system, it totally sucks." That's basically what you said. There are PLENTY of bugs in wow, do you still play it? The system isn't perfect, which is why you still need to look at the person's stats. GS is simply a numerical value to compare the
theoretical
capabilities of a player. If everything is the same, and people are going for the correct stats (which, with no further information, you can only assume it is) higher GS means better results. The problem is that a lot of people then don't take the other factors into account...but this doesn't mean the addon sucks. This means it's being abused or misused by those players.
There is a big difference between
GS is a bad addon
and
People who abuse/misuse GS are bad players
. Just because Master Loot can be abused by a ninja who formed the raid group doesn't mean ML is a bad loot system.
Post by
Maliander
I got kicked from a random HC party for having only 5k GS. I have complaints about the GearScore addon.
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