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Stamina > Avoidance
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Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Achloryn
Fair point, however you don't -need- to raise your defense over 540, which is why it's called the defense cap. In that sense, it's like the expertise cap. Ideally, you need 26 expertise to push block off of the table, but expertise above 26 is still helpful because it lowers your chance to be parried. Yes, it helps your mitigation some, but there's no real need to go above 540.
*man* i can't wait till cataclysm when defense rating will be nonexistant..
There is nothing wrong with raising defense over 540. You still get benefits from defense above 540. You could get benefits from defense up to 1000 or even 1500 if you could stack it. The reason we don't call it a CAP is because typically the term CAP means the most effectivness you get out of a stat. From a ret pallys perspective, the 8% hit cap is a hit cap meaning if you have hit past 8%, you are wasting stats on hit when they could be better invested in strength. A ret paladin only needs 8% hit and anything past that is a complete utter waste. That is why its called a cap, and thats why 540 defense shouldn't be called a cap. You still get stats from defense past 540. It's not ideal, but its not a complete waste like stacking past the hit cap.
Your example with expertise is flawed. #1 you said block but you meant to say dodge. 26 expertise gets rid of dodge. That is called the soft cap, because thats all melee dps needs because bosses can still dodge attacks from behind. So it's soft capped at 26 because DPS normally dpses from behind. You do need more than 26 experties to reduce parrys though, thats why it is only considdered a soft cap. More than 26 expertise is still useful, if you have to attack bosses from the front which is usually the tanks. Thats where the term soft cap and hard cap come from. Soft cap means no more dodges, hard cap means no more dodges or parries.
"The most effectiveness you get out of a stat" does not also mean "utterly useless after x amount", so you're comparison is flawed as well. Yes, hit rating for retadins is useless after 8%... absolutely useless.. However, defense is
most effective
up to 540. Yes, you still get benefit after 540, which I
did say
in my post, but you can't get crit less than 0 times. This is why I compared it to expertise.... Yes, I got dodge and block backwards.. oops.. but expertise is still more similar to defense than hit is. A dps'er can't always be behind a raid boss 100% of the time, and as you stated, tanks still benefit from expertise after the 26 mark, but they generally don't actively LOOK to go above 26.
Either way, bringing this part of the discussion isn't necessary cause I already agreed that calling it a cap is somewhat misleading and i'd change my terminology.
Post by
Domoaligato
This discussion is "Stamina > Avoidance" not "qq def cap qq"
Can someone please help to answer my question?
Is it viable in ICC to gear/gem/enchant to the avoidance+block cap of 102.4%(after chill of the throne) or stack stamina?
Post by
blademeld
I would say no, you lost out on 7000+ hp, and even if it was viable, you were gemming ineffectively.
Post by
Domoaligato
I would say no, you lost out on 7000+ hp, and even if it was viable, you were gemming ineffectively.
Could you help me by explaining how it is ineffective? or maybe help me improve my profile so it is effective for ICC? or is it just a waste of time to go avoidance in ICC?
I am not being lazy, I worked hard on this, I just don't understand why this profile(performed in rawr with all my current items) is ineffective gemming.
If you do decide to help improve the profile I have both ICC5 man tank weapons and all the librams as well as both brewfest trinkets and the black heart. I choose the block items to make up for the loss of block in the new high level gear.
Post by
blademeld
I don't feel like going through the entire thing, so I'll give you a couple tips:
You were gemming parry, dodge would be better.
Don't gem agility if you're going for avoidance, agility is more about balance.
You have 18 stamina to gloves and 40 BV to shield, 20 agi and 20 defense would free you up to grab more stamina on other slots.
Post by
zoomie
Im Trade Channel see about 2-6 new tanks a day saying "What is the
defence cap?
"
Even the uninformed people call it Defence Cap!
Why does it matter? It doesnt.
The uninformed call it the defense cap because of the fact that they are uninformed, how could you not figure that out on your own? Thats as easy as 1 + 1 = 2. Or in your case, 1 + 1 = 1
Post by
Frames
Im Trade Channel see about 2-6 new tanks a day saying "What is the
defence cap?
"
Even the uninformed people call it Defence Cap!
Why does it matter? It doesnt.
The uninformed call it the defense cap because of the fact that they are uninformed, how could you not figure that out on your own? Thats as easy as 1 + 1 = 2. Or in your case, 1 + 1 = 1
Still doesnt matter.
Post by
PKainus
A ret paladin only needs 8% hit and anything past that is a complete utter waste. That is why its called a cap, and thats why 540 defense shouldn't be called a cap. You still get stats from defense past 540. It's not ideal, but its not a complete waste like stacking past the hit cap.
I mean, if you're going to be calling out people for saying "defense cap" instead of "defense soft cap", you should be ready to get called out too. That being said, 8% hit is the
melee
hit cap - that doesn't effect Exorcism, or the initial tick of Consecration (I think?). More than 8% hit is still technically beneficial to a Retadin. Just sayin'.
Post by
424512
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blademeld
IIRC
There are two hits of the first tick of consecration, the tick that is effected by Spell Hit does no damage.
So you'd be just doing it for exorcism, or you wouldn't with T10 2P
either way, it's relatively safe to assume melee hit cap when discussing a melee class with one ability effected by spell hit.
Post by
Squishalot
A ret paladin only needs 8% hit and anything past that is a complete utter waste. That is why its called a cap, and thats why 540 defense shouldn't be called a cap. You still get stats from defense past 540. It's not ideal, but its not a complete waste like stacking past the hit cap.
I mean, if you're going to be calling out people for saying "defense cap" instead of "defense soft cap", you should be ready to get called out too. That being said, 8% hit is the
melee
hit cap - that doesn't effect Exorcism, or the initial tick of Consecration (I think?). More than 8% hit is still technically beneficial to a Retadin. Just sayin'.
I don't know about you, but I generally refer to it as the
melee hit cap
. And I think the only time I refer to 'soft caps' for anything is SBV for ShoR.
If you talk about Expertise soft caps and Defense soft caps, you might as well talk about the Haste soft cap and Armor Penetration soft cap (both zero). A cap is a cap, a so-called 'soft cap' is a threshold to be obtained. At least when I refer to a soft cap, it actually is a cap on the usefulness from the perspective you're looking at.
Post by
Domoaligato
Blademeld,
I tried profiling again with all my gear and the enchant choices did help to up the availability of stamina in other places but no matter what I had to gem for parry somewhere to make the 102.4% avoidance with chill of the throne.
This was using dodge food and the elixir of Mighty Agility and Mighty Defense.
How would you reach 102.4% (without gemming parry) or is it worth even trying to reach until ICC 25 gear?
Post by
blademeld
What does chill of the throne have anything to do with gemming parry?
Post by
Domoaligato
I am using this macro and building the profile in Rawr.
/script dr=function(x)return 1/(1/16+0.9560/x)end;DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+dr(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)/122.962)))
based on diminishing returns from dodge/defense would I not have to stack some extra parry to make the cap?
edit: adding dr from defense also.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Domoaligato
You don't need 102.4% dodge/block/parry for anything..
Avoidance + block cap
not 102.4% dodge/block/parry
Unhittable
(aka "Block Cap"):
It takes 102.4% total avoidance + block on your character sheet to remove hits from the attack table (on defense).
Post by
SlowSide
Stamina > Avoidance?
Do what you want, but I can tell you this, I am healing ICC10 with avoidance/armor tank (5900+ GS, 44k buffed HP) and we are downing Saurfang and Festergut with one tank (pala) - one healer (pala) - eight DPS raid composition, and BQL with one tank (pala) - two healers (pala + shaman) - seven DPS. Anyone can off-tank BQL if the main tank plays avoidance and the off-tank has BoL at all times (main tank just doesnt need it at all). The main tank also takes care of 2/3 blood princes (Keleseth has his personal warlock) with no problem - two healers and again BoL on the warlock, not the main tank.
And to stop any comments about our dream DPS that allows us to do this: its 5-6k average DPS per every damage dealer at standing figts (i.e. Festergut and Saurfang)
We are also doing Marrowgar and Deathwhisper with just one tank - two healers, but the first one is too weak to mention this and the second one is easy to one tank as long as you can take care of the aggro somehow, which is no problem at all.
Avoidance > Stamina!
Big HP? Looks good. But life doesnt work like that.
I would like to see the armory for said tank, though a tank with good 25m gear (AKA 5900+ GS) running a 10m makes things much easier I'm sure. Especially when I'm sure your entire raid is geared to a similar level (5.5K + GS).
I find it hard to believe you can down Festergut in less than 120 seconds with only 5-6k DPS, that feat would take almost 80k average raid DPS for the entire 2 minutes. One tank on Saurfang isn't hard as long as your DPS can overcome the 50k-70k healing each swing from
Rune of Blood
, but not every 10 man group can pump out the 40k+ raid DPS needed to overcome that, esp once he hits his soft enrage.
I've finished Marrowgar with only one tank up before, but again, 5900+ GS with ToC25 + mixed ICC gear would make it much easier, esp if you have the right raid combo. Deathwhisper again wouldn't be that bad with the right combo, but not every 10 man will have enough threat control mechanics to keep the tank on top.
You can't apply what your well geared raid combo can do to the masses of people with much lower gear, raid compositions that may be sub optimal, or those with less experience and skill.
Post by
blademeld
I am using this macro and building the profile in Rawr.
Are you by chance taking into account your libram?
If you are, drop all dodge and gem parry.
If not, drop all parry and gem dodge.
You're still below the 102.4% with the libram, the i110 block libram is better due to lack of diminishing returns.
Defense > dodge or parry, all yellow sockets should be defense.
Get block rating on your shield, not value.
I don't like Rawr, I can make my own spreadsheets.
Raid buffed, you have 1.74 ratio of dodge to parry.
Base Defense Rating Agility total Before After total Dodge:Parry
Dodge 8.49 9.47 16.04 4.35 38.36 29.87 23.07 31.56 1.74
Parry 10 9.47 7.69 27.16 17.16 12.99 22.99
Miss 5 9.47 14.47 9.47 6.11 11.11
Block 5 9.47 8.3 22.77 22.77
Ratings Value 102.77 88.43
Defense 1165
Dodge 726 132.77 118.43
Parry 348
Block 136 112.77 98.43
Agility
Gear 42
Food 40
Horn of Winter 155
Base Defense Rating Agility total Before After total Dodge:Parry
Dodge 8.49 9.47 20.38 4.35 42.7 34.2 25.45 33.94 1.99
Parry 10 9.47 7.69 27.16 17.16 12.99 22.99
Miss 5 9.47 14.47 9.47 6.11 11.11
Block 5 9.47 8.3 22.77 22.77
Ratings Value 107.1 90.81
Defense 1165
Dodge 922 137.1 120.81
Parry 348
Block 136 117.1 100.81
Agility
Gear 42
Food 40
Horn of Winter 155
Based on
Snoop Chill
.
Wowhead doesn't have the right numbers.
Before and After are referring to diminishing returns.
Miss is an estimation based on stats from Tankspot.
And finally
Base Defense Rating Agility total Before After total Dodge:Parry
Dodge 8.49 10 16.04 4.35 38.89 30.4 23.37 31.86 1.88
Parry 10 10 6.14 26.14 16.14 12.42 22.42
Miss 5 10 15 10 6.45 11.45
Block 5 10 11.78 26.78 26.78
Ratings Value 106.81 92.51
Defense 1230
Dodge 726 136.81 122.51
Parry 278
Block 193 116.81 102.51
Agility
Gear 42
Food 40
Horn of Winter 155
Based on
my customization
.
Post by
SlowSide
You don't need 102.4% dodge/block/parry for anything..
Avoidance + block cap
not 102.4% dodge/block/parry
Unhittable
(aka "Block Cap"):
It takes 102.4% total avoidance + block on your character sheet to remove hits from the attack table (on defense).
What he is saying is that YOU DON'T NEED to be unhittable anymore. Especially in ICC you will most likely not block enough damage for it to matter, and if you do block 3000 damage lets say & are unhittable you will probably have sacrificed so much health that you will still die quickly.
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