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Stamina > Avoidance
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Post by
AnrDaemon
Loyalty of whom to whom? Them to us? We pay monthly fee for that.
Us to them? They don't pay me enough for that. Dunno about you.
Well, I started this offtopic, I suggest we stop it now.
I'm almost sure we'll know the answer no later than in April.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
AnrDaemon
Are you planning on paying for all 4 keys again or something?
It's still better value than going to see movies in the theater.
I plan to invite friends. But currently I don't have such a rich friends, who can spend $70 for first month of play time.
Post by
65116
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Post by
481452
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Post by
115013
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
biogoo
Stamina > Avoidance?
Do what you want, but I can tell you this, I am healing ICC10 with avoidance/armor tank (5900+ GS, 44k buffed HP) and we are downing Saurfang and Festergut with one tank (pala) - one healer (pala) - eight DPS raid composition, and BQL with one tank (pala) - two healers (pala + shaman) - seven DPS. Anyone can off-tank BQL if the main tank plays avoidance and the off-tank has BoL at all times (main tank just doesnt need it at all). The main tank also takes care of 2/3 blood princes (Keleseth has his personal warlock) with no problem - two healers and again BoL on the warlock, not the main tank.
And to stop any comments about our dream DPS that allows us to do this: its 5-6k average DPS per every damage dealer at standing figts (i.e. Festergut and Saurfang)
We are also doing Marrowgar and Deathwhisper with just one tank - two healers, but the first one is too weak to mention this and the second one is easy to one tank as long as you can take care of the aggro somehow, which is no problem at all.
Avoidance > Stamina!
Big HP? Looks good. But life doesnt work like that.
Post by
TheJohan
I don't agree with the previous statement.
I don't see my guild attempting Marrowgar without a 2nd tank to soak damage, and the tank will have 0 aggro after a short while against Deathwhisper.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
biogoo
I don't agree with the previous statement.
I don't see my guild attempting Marrowgar without a 2nd tank to soak damage, and the tank will have 0 aggro after a short while against Deathwhisper.
Marrogar does negligible damage to tank, even better if he can avoid a lot of his hits. He cant even three-shot our tank certainly, even if he manages to hit three times in a row.
Deathwhispers debuff doesnt lower aggro, just lowers its generation. That is something that can be worked around (bubble+cancelaura works very well, tricks of the trade/misdirection works too, and of course HoS on top threat list DPS)
Enjoy having your tanks one shot by Sindra's breath in P3 biogoo.
5.9k GS is what, full 25 man gear? No wonder it's #$%^ easy to burn through all bosses.
For content that you aren't outgearing by a wide margin, stamina > avoidance.
Our tank has, of course, stamina gear also.
His eq is a mix of 251/264, which is something you should already have after all those weeks of daily randoms/weekly raids/ICCs.
Ilvl 251 may outgear first wing, but when second one was released, everyone who did the first from the start already had even some 264 pieces, even if it was from emblems or BoEs. Being equipped in 251/264 for second/third wing is something that you really cant call outgearing. Unless you also say that gear obtainable in previous content is outgearing the new one, of course, which may be true.
Post by
hatman555
Do what you want, but I can tell you this, I am healing ICC10 with avoidance/armor tank (5900+ GS, 44k buffed HP) and we are downing Saurfang and Festergut with one tank (pala) - one healer (pala) - eight DPS raid composition, and BQL with one tank (pala) - two healers (pala + shaman) - seven DPS.
I'm just trying to wrap my head around this..... Festergut with one tank? I don't see how this is possible unless you are letting a DPS tank if for the first 30 seconds. Even with the best DPS in the world, Festergut applies 10 stacks of
Gastric Bloat
before he has inhaled the last gas cloud. Your downing him before his soft power up? Your downing him in less time than it takes to get 10 stacks?
Ok, lets say that yes, your able to do the things you do. Its not viable for other fights, and defiantly not viable in 25 man.
Can we get some armory links of your tanking paladin? I would really be interested to see how he sockets. I have never been one to socket pure stam......but I don't go and socket pure avoidance either.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
biogoo
I'm just trying to wrap my head around this..... Festergut with one tank? I don't see how this is possible unless you are letting a DPS tank if for the first 30 seconds. Even with the best DPS in the world, Festergut applies 10 stacks of
Gastric Bloat
before he has inhaled the last gas cloud.
Bubble + cancelaura during one of Festerguts inhales. I dont know in which exact moment he does that but he gets rid of it once in the fight and life just goes on. This mechanic has nothing to do with avoidance, but his high avoidance allows me to solo heal the fight without having to pay too much attention to mana.
Ok, lets say that yes, your able to do the things you do. Its not viable for other fights, and defiantly not viable in 25 man.
Viability is one thing (but yes, it IS viable in any 25man we had done after 25man ToGC Northrend Beasts... to be honest, I as a tank healer I encourage him to go for avoidance/mitigation and since that I just love healing him - no wait, not healing him, in fact:)) but what I wanted to say is that despite stamina is ok and any tank stacking it after defense minimum should be ok, then if you go for more avoidance at the cost of lower HP, you dont lose anything, just gain.
I cant imagine 10man Saurfang one-tanked with stamina tank, not that he could not survive, just the healing to the boss would be too high for us, possibly allowing second mark at 10man and at that point it could not be one-healed anymore, giving away even more DPS... but it doesnt matter, the best strategy for Saurfang 10 man still remains two tanks - one healer - rest DPS and no marks at all.
From my experience, in any fight I have encountered, avoidance > stamina unless the boss can one-shot the tank.
I cant say it is something universal and aplicable for anyone, because most of his avoidance/mitigation attitude came from me and him speaking a lot about his tanking and my healing and perhaps it all is something that suits both of us and allow us to do the best. It allows both of us to do something ppl can nothing but unbelievably stare at (sadly, people get used to it and now the other tank and healer we have for 10man just refuse to tank/heal those fights and just go DPS, heh) and frankly, we both like that. But it also allows our low DPS raid to succeed at fight we couldnt normaly do due to berserk timer (BQL - not only we reduce the need for two tanks to just one there, but at the same time we are perfectly able to duo-heal the fight, which is something a lot of groups gave up pretty soon)
To the armory links... sorry, I wont give it, its not mine:)
But if I say that in his avoidance gear he gives up about 9k buffed HP, would it suffice? Part of it comes from gems, part from trinkets, and some stamina gets lost by equipping 251 ilvls due to their better avoidance stats than their 264 ilvl counterparts. I am not sure if we have all HP enhancing buffs at full strenght in 10man also.
No, of course it wont suffice, but you get the basic picture.
Post by
Domoaligato
I'm pretty noob with tanking but this is the point:
I've talked yesterday with a 5.790 gearscore paladin who told me that buffing stamina is strongly better than investing in parry dodge and block.
Is he true?
Keape can we get a armory link?
This thread has gone off track and really without a link and what content you are trying to tank, we can not really help you.
biogoo... try using your
Ultimate Tank Saving Macro: The Guide
inside ICC and see what happens.
:P
Edit:adding please stop with the useless wall of text. it may help your epeen but is making my head hurt.
Post by
zoomie
Fair point, however you don't -need- to raise your defense over 540, which is why it's called the defense cap. In that sense, it's like the expertise cap. Ideally, you need 26 expertise to push block off of the table, but expertise above 26 is still helpful because it lowers your chance to be parried. Yes, it helps your mitigation some, but there's no real need to go above 540.
*man* i can't wait till cataclysm when defense rating will be nonexistant..
There is nothing wrong with raising defense over 540. You still get benefits from defense above 540. You could get benefits from defense up to 1000 or even 1500 if you could stack it. The reason we don't call it a CAP is because typically the term CAP means the most effectivness you get out of a stat. From a ret pallys perspective, the 8% hit cap is a hit cap meaning if you have hit past 8%, you are wasting stats on hit when they could be better invested in strength. A ret paladin only needs 8% hit and anything past that is a complete utter waste. That is why its called a cap, and thats why 540 defense shouldn't be called a cap. You still get stats from defense past 540. It's not ideal, but its not a complete waste like stacking past the hit cap.
Your example with expertise is flawed. #1 you said block but you meant to say dodge. 26 expertise gets rid of dodge. That is called the soft cap, because thats all melee dps needs because bosses can still dodge attacks from behind. So it's soft capped at 26 because DPS normally dpses from behind. You do need more than 26 experties to reduce parrys though, thats why it is only considdered a soft cap. More than 26 expertise is still useful, if you have to attack bosses from the front which is usually the tanks. Thats where the term soft cap and hard cap come from. Soft cap means no more dodges, hard cap means no more dodges or parries.
Post by
zoomie
Jargon
is terminology which is especially defined in relationship to a specific activity, profession, or group. The term most often covers the language used by people who work in a particular area or who have a common interest. Much like slang, it can develop as a kind of short-hand, to express ideas that are frequently discussed between members of a group, though it can also be developed deliberately using chosen terms. A standard term may be given a more precise or unique usage among practitioners of a field. In many cases this causes a barrier to communication with those not familiar with the language of the field. As an example, the
defense cap
is a jargon term related to
tanking
, and refers to the ammount of defense skill you need to achieve 100%
immunity to critical hits
.
When someone says defense cap, he says 540. It is wrong to confuse people with statements like "there is no cap to defense", because when they refer to the "defense cap" as to the ammount of 540 defense (in the current expansion), they are correct. A more helpful approach would be describing that extra defense over the cap is not bad, and it might even be the best stat to put into a yellow socket, provided the socket bonus is worth going for.
I agree, but disagree. Yes when tanks hear the term defense cap, we know what people are talking about. But when joe shmoe hits level 80 today and wants to gear up for tanking, how is he going to know that anything past 540 defense is worth anything when its referred to as a cap? Hit cap means you only get a certain amount out of the stat, even if you have far too much of it. You could have 10% hit, but you only need 8% so you have 2% hit thats a complete waste and you are gimping your dps because thats 2% hit that could be better invested in strength. The term CAP means you only get XX% use out of it. You only need 540 defense, but it in no way shape or form should be considdered any kind of a cap because you still gain from it.
IMO defense is the only avoidance related stat that is worth putting into a socket. It also gives little extra bonuses to Paladins -> more hp gained from an Ardent Defender proc, and to Death Knights -> more damage reduction on IBF.
See, here is a MAJOR point where you are just dead wrong. Ardent defender NEVER EVER gives you more than 30% health when it procs. It is based on defense yes, but the design is to put you back up to 30% health and every tank is crit immune, which is 540 defense. So the cap from ardent defender is 30% with 540 defense. Even if you have 600 defense, you will never ever get healed for more than 30% (unless it crits, which it MIGHT. I swear I thought I saw a crit AD go off once).
Icebound fortitude is the same thing. That one is designed so non tanking DKs can use it, but they don't get the full effectiveness out of it that a tank would. It is supposed to be the exact same as our divine protection, 50% damage reduction. So 540 defense, the crit immune number, maxes them out at 50%.
Really smart people can also notice that the avoidance stats the defense grants (you know, when you roll over it in your character sheet) still go up, so getting more than 540 defense is still somewhat beneficial.
Really smart people wouldn't call 540 a cap because of what you said, defense past 540 is beneficial. The term cap means once you reach a certain point, there IS NO BENEFIT FROM IT.
Post by
zoomie
I'm just trying to wrap my head around this..... Festergut with one tank? I don't see how this is possible unless you are letting a DPS tank if for the first 30 seconds. Even with the best DPS in the world, Festergut applies 10 stacks of
Gastric Bloat
before he has inhaled the last gas cloud. Your downing him before his soft power up? Your downing him in less time than it takes to get 10 stacks?
Ok, lets say that yes, your able to do the things you do. Its not viable for other fights, and defiantly not viable in 25 man.
Can we get some armory links of your tanking paladin? I would really be interested to see how he sockets. I have never been one to socket pure stam......but I don't go and socket pure avoidance either.
Cheers,
Hat
It is viable to do what he is doing. But heres the problem. He is doing all of that in 10 man. It doesn't mean that the tank is a super amazing tank. It doesn't mean that the healers are super amazing healers. It's freakin 10 man. It is very well possible to do that, and I can guarantee that it will not work in 10 man and it will not work in 10 man heroic, but with their method of clearing 10 man and overconfidence will be their downfall because they wont be able to kill arthas. But like I said, it doesn't mean he is super.
Keep in mind that this is actually coming from a healers perspective, who I'm guessing has ZERO understanding of tanking mechanics. Because of the steep diminishing returns at tier 10 levels, and the chilled to the throne debuff, this tank probably only has maybe 5% more avoidance than tanks who gear for effective health.
Just to give you some numbers here. In my effective health gear, I'm at 26.94% dodge, 20.38% parry, 10.60% block and 540 defense exactly. I have 33502 armor (68.74% DR from physical damage) and 45389 health.
In my avoidance gear (basically my non armor gear) I have 28.99% dodge, 22.00% parry, 12.56% block, and 589 defense. 28575 armor (65.23% DR from physical damage) and 44444 health (lol)
In my armor gear, I have 36.6% change to dodge, parry, or have an attack miss. I have 36.6% avoidance in my armor gear (counting -20% dodge, and - block chance).
In my avoidance gear, I have 41.29% chance to dodge, parry, or have an attack miss.
My avoidance gear gives me a whopping 4.69 extra chance to dodge or parry or have an attack miss. But I lose 945 health and 3.51% physical damage reduction. Didn't my rough estimate say that an avoidance stacked tank would only have about 5% more avoidance than an EH stacked tank? Let me scroll up.... yeah I did! Mr super amazing avoidance stacking tank is probably only getting hit 5% less than other tanks. 3.51% damage reduction from armor will reduce damage taken a LOT more than 5% extra avoidance.
Post by
Squishalot
Good (I think..) to see you back, zoomie, but quadruple posting, muchly..?
Mr super amazing avoidance stacking tank is probably only getting hit 5% less than other tanks
Actually, it's not quite... it's (1 - 0.4129) vs (1 - 0.3660), or hit 58.71% of the time vs 63.4% of the time. That's being hit about 8% (7.99% more precisely) more often in your armour gear, or 7.4% less in your avoidance gear, not 5% less.
Not disagreeing with what you're saying generally, just correcting your math.
Post by
Thror
Lots of stuff about my post.
Oh, i did not know that IBF damage reduction and the Ardent Defender heal had some kind of a cap.
Yes, i know what "cap" means literally. In the post you quoted, however, i was describing that in the
defense cap
jargon term, which is widely used among tanks, the "cap" word is not of literal sense. Its figurative. Well, as long as the one who uses the term knows that defense is beneficial even above the cap, it is figurative. Many people already posted their literal definitions of "cap", which were all moot...
(figurative - Based on or making use of figures of speech; metaphorical.)
I do not think i really care about random Joe Shmoes who can not gather information about their role. Sure, it is not very ethical to widely use a phrase that might get misunderstood by laics, but it is also not practical to just stop using it, since everyone is so used to it. Random Joe Shmoe should read up about his class a bit, or ask some friends ingame. Good tanking guides should include a good description of Defense. Players who can not get any external source of information about their class/role are vastly frowned upon currently. Again i do not say i am glad that it is this way, it really should be changed, but it is just the state things are in now.
Post by
Domoaligato
basically.. as a avoidance set this
profile
would allow me to be at the magic 102.4% avoid+block cap (with chill of the throne) then start stamina stacking from their.
Is this viable? or just stack stam and forget about avoidance/migitation?
Btw. I am not geared this way right now. I am a stam stacker. Outside ICC I am still at the 102.4% rating without chill.
Post by
Frames
People who argue about Defence Cap/Uncritable, which is right or wrong upset me.
I cannot wait untill Cata when everyone shuts up about:
"If you use Defence Cap, its wrong and your spreading false infomation and confusing people."
Im Trade Channel see about 2-6 new tanks a day saying "What is the
defence cap?
"
Even the uninformed people call it Defence Cap!
Why does it matter? It doesnt.
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