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Seal of Command Good For Tanking?
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Post by
Lorkin
I am really impressed with SoC ability to "grab" many targets... it's very impressive.
That's another thing, the cleave range is HUGE! Not sure what hit box logic they put in but it seems that my SoCleave extends way beyond my warrior's cleave ability.
Post by
pezz
Its like someone coming up to you and saying, hey there, im going to take away 1% of your Crit and give you a doughnut you can eat while you raid. If the Doughnut makes you happier, then sure take the doughnut. but when your DPS needs to hold back for even a second, i think they are going to be pretty @#$%ed that you chose a doughnut over more threat.
I think it's reasonably well established that SoComm is better than 1% crit for aggro on short fights, so let's discuss bosses. A tank as good as you are is not relying on 1% crit to make or break his ability to hold threat, especially not when he plays a paladin.
Post by
blademeld
1% crit is worth ~53 TPS just as a note.
Post by
hatman555
I think it's reasonably well established that SoComm is better than 1% crit for aggro on short fights
Agreed
so let's discuss bosses. A tank as good as you are is not relying on 1% crit to make or break his ability to hold threat, especially not when he plays a paladin.
Last night I was in a 10 man LK with no misdirects. I popped my wings as soon as my 5th stack of SOV landed and boosted my threat as much as possible. The problem is, As good as my gear, and as solid as my rotation is. the warrior the warlock and the Boomkin in the group are as equally skilled and geared. The warlock even more gear because he has been raiding longer in this guild than I have, and is a officer, and in my guild DPS gets tear tokens first, because tank damage in normal modes is a joke.
So yes, I was having threat problems. 1% crit may not be that much, but it sucks when you have a 30K wipe on a 30 million health boss and you think that if DPS could have push a little harder over the course of the fight, you might have downed it.
It doesn't mater that 1% is only 53 TPS, or whatever the exact number is, all that maters is that your trading that away something good for nothing. For lots of numbers on your screen during trash? Please, if i want to see numbers on my screen I'll go play some flash game like super bounce.
Hat, thats your group. We arnt arguing that. We are arguing that when you have trash that DO take under 30-40 sec to get down SoC is superior. It doesn't matter than your group takes longer. What matters is those that don't.
ICC trash in my groups take around 30 sec. Therefore I would use SoC. And SoC in all of heroics except on bosses. Your aguements are jumping around all over the place in a desperate attempt to rationalize not taking SoC at the cost of 1% crit.
Bottem line:
If trash packs live longer than 40 sec, use SoV. If not, then SoC is superior. If your dps is taking 41 sec to kill ICC trash than great, but that aint the point.
Also consider that DPS can let loose both more early and harder when you use SoC, thus you may see trash dropping faster because they are not TPS capped as much rendering ICC trade dieing faster and making your point null anyway.
I don't see how my argument is jumping around all over the place.
1.) I have agreed that for heroics, because SoComm hits many more targets, and because those targets die so quickly. It is better for heroics. I get it.
2.) SoComm will not help you for any raid boss in ICC. After I posted my last reply I went back and read theckhd tread again so I could learn his math. I notices that he suggested using SoComm for the Lady D fight for snap threat and because they die so quickly. If you need snap threat on those adds then you should be using Seal of Righteousness SoComm. Even so, those adds are dieing in 4 seconds now because they got nerf so terribly. If you losing threat to them its because your DPS is not attacking priority targets that don't need to be tanked first.
Another suggestion was on gunships. I would use SOV on gunships because as an OT in that situation, its just you and the adds for most of the fight, the DPS will come kill them later when they are not busy killing things on the enemy ship. You want snap threat in that fight too? Rotate using the jet back while you attack, it does 2000 damage to everything in 10 yards. I have tanked that fight doing nothing more than spamming my jet pack.
Agree with theckhd's math, just not some of his applications.
3.) I can't tell if your just trying to take punches at the DPS in my guild now, or your trying desperately to hang on to the fact that you traded 1% crit for a tool that has no uses in ICC. Use a stop watch next time you tank ICC trash. Its longer than 30 seconds
4.) Its trash. half the raid goes AFK, our hunters MD the priests in an attempt to kill them, the GM in my guild who is the (main tank) auto attacks through most of it because he is too busy talking to people to get ready for the things that really mater. BOSSES.
5.) Enjoy your doughnut
Cheers,
Hat
1% crit is worth ~53 TPS just as a note.
SoComm is worth 0 TPS
Post by
blademeld
Btw, did you spec 5/53/13 for Ulduar and switch back every time you came out of Ulduar?
Post by
hatman555
Btw, did you spec 5/53/13 for Ulduar and switch back every time you came out of Ulduar?
Probably not.
I have learned a lot since ulduar tho, I was not in a top server progression guild at that time. I never got past mimiron with my old 25 man guild. Maybe that's why I never really liked ulduar, and I love TOC and ICC. I'm happy our guild doesn't go to ulduar anymore. Hell the last time I was in ulduar I was drunk and we still got the Proto drake for a person that paid our guild 15K to run him through the hard modes.
And since our guild is really focused on getting Anub 50 attempts down every week to get more high level cloaks for people, I havn't been switching my helm and cloak enchants, before I go back into ICC either. At least I'm happy that normal modes are a joke for tank damage. If my tanking enchants would help some of our DPS not die to basic movement mechanics, then I would change them as often as I could.
As soon as we get to the hard modes, my priorities will change tho, and I will drop the nature resist.
Cheers,
Hat
p.s. Speaking of ulduar. empty your inventory so you have a ton of bag space. Grab a friend and make yourself a 10 man or 25 man ulduar raid. Get into a demolisher and clear the Flame leviathan trash. It is by far the easiest and fastest way i know of getting
Lovely Charms
Post by
240282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
Hat,
Your argument appears to be that SoC isn't necessary and is therefore a poor choice. But this logic also applies to 1% crit. Everyone is well aware that this is a throwaway talent point. In the big scheme of things, SoC isn't going to make or break you as a pally tank. However, it does offer you the very best seal in AoE scenarios, and that is worth more, generally speaking, than increasing your single-target threat generation in raid by something like 1/2 a percent.
Well that is where we are going to have to disagree. I have listed my reasons, and have listened the reasons everyone else has listed.
Its been fun talking about this because, while I have not changed my opinion of specing into SoC for my raiding spec, I think I have lessened my negative bias towards SoC on as whole.
Thanks blademeld for the intellect and counter points. Sorry it got kinda hostile. :- /
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Quest
1% crit is worth ~53 TPS just as a note.
SoComm is worth 0 TPS
*rolls eyes*
Youre just trolling now. We have pointed out several times the huge window where SoC is superior. You want to pretend every encounter is a fight over 40 sec thats fine, but the rest of us are not so blind and stubborn.
Post by
valundar
p.s. Speaking of ulduar. empty your inventory so you have a ton of bag space. Grab a friend and make yourself a 10 man or 25 man ulduar raid. Get into a demolisher and clear the Flame leviathan trash. It is by far the easiest and fastest way i know of getting
Lovely Charms
If you use the demolisher you don't need another with ya.
Why share the charms? You can kill them just as fast just shooting the cannon.
The only hairy part is when the choppers come.... just hop over to the top and gun em down! (do it fast before they nuke ya)
Post by
Nazeka
need more than one person in the raid group to enter any raid.
Post by
valundar
need more than one person in the raid group to enter any raid.
and that is where a friend helps.
Invite friend to grp.
make them lead.
switch to your alt.
have friend invite alt.
log into your main.
Have friend give you lead.
Convert to raid.
tada! now you have a raid grp consisting of you and your alt.
Post by
hatman555
1% crit is worth ~53 TPS just as a note.
SoComm is worth 0 TPS
*rolls eyes*
Youre just trolling now. We have pointed out several times the huge window where SoC is superior. You want to pretend every encounter is a fight over 40 sec thats fine, but the rest of us are not so blind and stubborn.
If you read one thing that I say on this thread please read the next line.
I don't care about trash, when it comes to what maters in a raid its the bosses and the bosses alone. 100% of the boss fights in ICC SoComm = 0TPS since you are not using it.
You skip trash, you complain about trash on wow boards, and you hate when it respawns and you need to kill it again. What DOESN'T happen is you find that guilds can't get to a boss fight because they can't down the trash before that boss.
So no, I'm not trolling, I'm defending my opinion and tanking style.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Quest
So your tanking style is to irrational dislike a certain tool ignoreing when it is better than your current tool? No one is telling you to use SoC. We are telling you that it
IS
better under the conditions we outlined a dozen times, and you keep going off in odd directions.
I find that slightly strange seeing as how you're making a 5man heroics guide where SoC is going to be the bread and butter tanking seal 90% of the time there.
SoV = 0 TPS when you're not using it too, but that makes 0 sense and oddly enough thats the same amount of sense you're making here.
Post by
blademeld
So your tanking style is to irrational dislike a certain tool ignoreing when it is better than your current tool? No one is telling you to use SoC. We are telling you that it
IS
better under the conditions we outlined a dozen times, and you keep going off in odd directions.
Here's a better way to put it:
Everyone else: "SoComm is a useful tool in xxx situations"
hatman555: "53 TPS is better for ICC trash and bosses"
Quest/Couple others: "It's better for some ICC trash"
hatman555: "53 TPS is still better for bosses"
Post by
pezz
I think it's reasonably well established that SoComm is better than 1% crit for aggro on short fights
Agreed
so let's discuss bosses. A tank as good as you are is not relying on 1% crit to make or break his ability to hold threat, especially not when he plays a paladin.
Last night I was in a 10 man LK with no misdirects. I popped my wings as soon as my 5th stack of SOV landed and boosted my threat as much as possible. The problem is, As good as my gear, and as solid as my rotation is. the warrior the warlock and the Boomkin in the group are as equally skilled and geared. The warlock even more gear because he has been raiding longer in this guild than I have, and is a officer, and in my guild DPS gets tear tokens first, because tank damage in normal modes is a joke.
So what I'm seeing here is, no Misdirects (which I assume is lumped in with TotT) and no mention of HoSalv used by you or any other paladin in the raid. One talent point here or there is not what I'd worry about.
Post by
hatman555
I think it's reasonably well established that SoComm is better than 1% crit for aggro on short fights
Agreed
so let's discuss bosses. A tank as good as you are is not relying on 1% crit to make or break his ability to hold threat, especially not when he plays a paladin.
Last night I was in a 10 man LK with no misdirects. I popped my wings as soon as my 5th stack of SOV landed and boosted my threat as much as possible. The problem is, As good as my gear, and as solid as my rotation is. the warrior the warlock and the Boomkin in the group are as equally skilled and geared. The warlock even more gear because he has been raiding longer in this guild than I have, and is a officer, and in my guild DPS gets tear tokens first, because tank damage in normal modes is a joke.
So what I'm seeing here is, no Misdirects (which I assume is lumped in with TotT) and no mention of HoSalv used by you or any other paladin in the raid. One talent point here or there is not what I'd worry about.
Lol ya, I know what you mean. We started out with a very good group, 3 ranged 2 melee 3 heals, a druid tank and myself. At the end of the week tho we had our rogue and Ret paladin leave us for Superbowl and they couldn't join us on Monday :- /
So only one HoSalv, didn't think I needed to mention it, but it was used on the boomkin. We told the warlock to soul shatter or whatever. Warrior would keep nuking the king tho :-P
>_< oh well, there is always next week. And by next week I mean this week! :-D
Cheers,
Hat
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