This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Seal of Command Good For Tanking?
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
blademeld
You need to pull your head out of the gutter.
Excuse me? I had respect for you, but comments like that just make you look bad, not me.
First of all, you really need to pull your head out of the gutter, you have an extremely unhealthy bias towards SoComm.
If you lose respect for me, fine, but don't go around spreading misinformation.
I'm only talking about ICC trash here. I in no way expect to get so many stacks up on heroics trash.
Again, fine, I misinterpreted that because you mentioned heroics in the previous paragraph.
Sorry? Overall Damage = how fast the heroic dies, how fast anything dies. If I can do more damage over all, then that means I'm contributing more to the group.
Wrong, DPS = how fast things die, less Overall Damage Done just means the other members did more damage.
Post by
slasher0161
Why is this still being debated, what has to be said has been said and the facts are out there nice and neatly.
I for one can say for heroics seal of command makes a tanks life cruise control and even at a moderate pace (12min uk run) you don't have to think too much at all. Yes we all coped without it but we all also coped without power steering, yet now some people can't live without it.
Will picking it up make or break your tanking? No
Is there a better spot for that 1 talent point? Not really
Should we all just let this die now? Yes
Post by
hatman555
First of all, you really need to pull your head out of the gutter, you have an extremely unhealthy bias towards SoComm.
If you lose respect for me, fine, but don't go around spreading misinformation.
Again, you are being aggressive and disrespectful for no reason. If I have an unhealthy bias against using SoComm, in heroics, it would seem that you unhealthy bias FOR using it.
I have never spread false information on these forums. I actually admit when I am wrong about a idea. I never say anything is fact unless i am 100% sure of it and have proof to back it up. In my original post I posted that my sample size was both small and because of being done with pugs was not reproducible. Anything I said about SoComm was MY OWN opinion.
I felt and I still do that it does not hold threat well enough for MY tanking style. This could be because I have developed this style after tanking over 500 WOTLK heroics with SOV and not SoComm. I admit that if I changed my style some what and then maybe some of the problems i was experiencing with SoComm could have been avoided.
But then again, why change something that works, and works well? The potential gains from it are worth much, much less than the cost of changing my style and my spec.
Sorry? Overall Damage = how fast the heroic dies, how fast anything dies. If I can do more damage over all, then that means I'm contributing more to the group.
Wrong, DPS = how fast things die, less Overall Damage Done just means the other members did more damage.
Yes your right. Don't know what I was thinking on that one. Damage meters have always been something that confused me about recount in general. And I will give you an example. In TOC recount counts the damage in jousting.
I will often see myself at the top of the meters with 50% of the overall damage done, the next person under me will have 25% of the damage done, but his DPS will be 6000 while mine is only around 4000. Why is there such a difference between damage done and DPS? Shouldn't more DPS = more damage done in a single fight?
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
blademeld
Again, you are being aggressive and disrespectful for no reason. If I have an unhealthy bias against using SoComm, in heroics, it would seem that you unhealthy bias FOR using it.
If that's your definition of aggressive, you clearly haven't been exposed to the full extent of the Internet. I don't have an unhealthy bias for using it, I know when it's theoretically and practically better for me to use it.
You have ignored the math and testimonies of others several times so far in this discussion, that's why I say it's unhealthy.
I have never spread false information on these forums. I actually admit when I am wrong about a idea. I never say anything is fact unless i am 100% sure of it and have proof to back it up.
False, you probably didn't intentionally do it, but you've been pushing Sorry? Overall Damage = how fast the heroic dies, how fast anything dies. If I can do more damage over all, then that means I'm contributing more to the group. this idea over the course of the entire thread, even after we've pointed out it's wrong.
But then again, why change something that works, and works well? The potential gains from it are not worth much less than the cost of changing my style and my spec.
This has been covered in this thread, being rigid in your style is a flaw, it's not a critical flaw, but a flaw nevertheless.
Shouldn't more DPS = more damage done in a single fight?
No, because Recount isn't perfect, if a DPS came in when the fight was 90% over and dumped all his abilities, he can reach 10k DPS and still do the least damage done.
Post by
hatman555
If that's your definition of aggressive, you clearly haven't been exposed to the full extent of the Internet.
1.) You are not "the internet"
2.) wowhead forums are not "the internet"
3.) I don't come to these forums to insult or belittle people, I come to have discussions with other paladins because of a general sense of appreciation for this game and the class.
4.) If your defense for being a !@#$ is that others do worse on the internet, then that's just sad.
But then again, why change something that works, and works well? The potential gains from it are not worth much less than the cost of changing my style and my spec.
This has been covered in this thread, being rigid in your style is a flaw, it's not a critical flaw, but a flaw nevertheless.
Its not a flaw if I have acknowledges and weight the potential gains and loses of it.
So fair, but you never know when it might change, SOC is useless to have in a raiding tank spec. There is not a single boss fight I can think of were you would want SOC over SOV. Trash doesn't mater, and 90% of the time SOV beats SOC for raid trash. For a raiding tank it is a wasted point.
I need a Ret spec and Ret set in my guild, because there are fights where you only need 1 tank. So I don't have the luxury of having a second spec to use as a heroics tanking spec.
I'm not going to respect and re-glyph every time I want to do a heroic, just because i want to "space out", or not have to think about the run I'm in. The fastest way to get through a heroic is not to do one at all.
Cheers,
Hat
So SoComm is useless to me.
Post by
Nazeka
I have noticed that I have a MUCH easier time in heroics when using SoC with dps who know how to do single target, and only single target dps. I gladly prefer an instant ~1200 threat hit per melee on three targets when the Failpugs only know how to Mortal strike and mutilate (not singling out those classes, just examples) over a stronger judgement and dot on my current target. Maybe I don't tab target enough, maybe I'm lazy (I know I'm not even close to being as good as I used to be), but I do know that I have a much easier and quicker time in heroics when I use SoCleave over SoV. My opinion, take it or leave it.
Post by
blademeld
4.) If your defense for being a !@#$ is that others do worse on the internet, then that's just sad.
I'll admit that was mean of me, but you need to have thicker skin, that was one line, it's been worse even on these forums.
Just because it's rare you get aggression towards you, doesn't mean it doesn't exist on these forums.
I only got aggressive because you repeated points that have already been answered for.
Its not a flaw if I have acknowledges and weight the potential gains and loses of it.
False, it's still a flaw whether you admit it or not.
False, it's still a flaw even if you point out the pros and the cons.
So fair, but you never know when it might change, SOC is useless to have in a raiding tank spec. There is not a single boss fight I can think of were you would want SOC over SOV. Trash doesn't mater, and 90% of the time SOV beats SOC for raid trash. For a raiding tank it is a wasted point.
False: it's not
useless
, useless would be 100% unusable.
I'm not going to respect and re-glyph every time I want to do a heroic, just because i want to "space out", or not have to think about the run I'm in. The fastest way to get through a heroic is not to do one at all.
You've clearly demonstrated you've not read through this thread, just the ones directed to you.
Post by
hatman555
4.) If your defense for being a !@#$ is that others do worse on the internet, then that's just sad.
I'll admit that was mean of me, but you need to have thicker skin, that was one line, it's been worse even on these forums.
Just because it's rare you get aggression towards you, doesn't mean it doesn't exist on these forums.
I only got aggressive because you repeated points that have already been answered for.
I have gotten aggression before, just didn't expect to get it so quickly from you. Repeated points that have already been answered? I think you actually started answering stuff after you ask me to take my head out of the gutter. And hey! what do you know. I admitted mistakes when presented with valid statements, not off hand insults.
Its not a flaw if I have acknowledges and weight the potential gains and loses of it.
False, it's still a flaw whether you admit it or not.
False, it's still a flaw even if you point out the pros and the cons. I would disagree. I don't want to spend the money constantly respecting for SoComm. Is it a flaw as well that i don't want to flask in heroics? Is it a flaw that I don't want to drop fish feasts for myself and pugs? No, these are not flaws, these are choices we make.
So fair, but you never know when it might change, SOC is useless to have in a raiding tank spec. There is not a single boss fight I can think of were you would want SOC over SOV. Trash doesn't mater, and 90% of the time SOV beats SOC for raid trash. For a raiding tank it is a wasted point.
False: it's not
useless
, useless would be 100% unusable.
Ok then, I change my statement to this. SoComm, is 100% useless for Prot tanking in current progression raids. If there is a fight that you can think of that SoComm = benefit to the raid then let me know.
You've clearly demonstrated you've not read through this thread, just the ones directed to you.
I'v read every post in this thread, most of them do like i do, but not as long. How people feel about seal of command.
it's fun to see all those numbers flying everywhere.
100% optional for a tank.
Pick it up if you want, use it on trash.
I agree, its valid but optional. It isn't really needed and some people will prefer to spend that point elsewhere.
Needed, no. But It's really really fun to pull 5k+ dps on trash in heroics, effectively making everyone dps question their manhood. So i have it.
I for one can say for heroics seal of command makes a tanks life cruise control and even at a moderate pace (12min uk run) you don't have to think too much at all.
Well I don't want heroics to be cruise control. Why play the game if you don't want to play the game? That's why i take away from it.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
frmorrison
I'm not going to respect and re-glyph every time I want to do a heroic.
You are pretty stubborn! You don't need a second spec or second set of glyphs for heroics, just take one point from Conviction (1% crit is like 0.5% better threat) and get Command. It seems like you have never tried it out.
Trash does matter since more time is spent on trash than bosses, so making them maybe 30 seconds faster (due to you doing more dps using Command), saves about 12 minutes in a 25m. 12 minutes is not much, but all you had to do was drop 1% crit. Whatever "style" you have, you can do the same thing with Command as Vengeance.
Post by
blademeld
I have gotten aggression before, just didn't expect to get it so quickly from you. Repeated points that have already been answered? I think you actually started answering stuff after you ask me to take my head out of the gutter. And hey! what do you know. I admitted mistakes when presented with valid statements, not off hand insults.
Nope, most, if not all, has already been accounted for before that, you've just repeated same points. I can prove this by addressing your current concerns.
I would disagree. I don't want to spend the money constantly respecting for SoComm. Is it a flaw as well that i don't want to flask in heroics? Is it a flaw that I don't want to drop fish feasts for myself and pugs? No, these are not flaws, these are choices we make.
For this quote, we have people saying otherwise:
What you give up for SoC is negligible compared to what it is for. Namely 1% crit.
Plus we have testimonies that Heroics were much easier.
Ok then, I change my statement to this. SoComm, is 100% useless for Prot tanking in current progression raids. If there is a fight that you can think of that SoComm = benefit to the raid then let me know.
This, we can prove that your quote is redundant.
Just remember, it's strictly for heroics/naxx. ICC trash lives long enough for venegance to pull ahead.
Way before you mentioned it anywhere.
Well I don't want heroics to be cruise control. Why play the game if you don't want to play the game? That's why i take away from it.
This part doesn't make sense, by your own admission.
It was very frustrating to have to stop, turn around, run back, and hit those mobs again.
More work?
Post by
pezz
Hat, what exactly are you arguing? That SoComm is inferior on heroics trash? Or that you think the difference between it and SoV are so small that it isn't worth your time and effort to get used to it? You haven't exactly been clear and that's an important distinction.
I think blade is arguing from a theoretical, min/maxing perspective. SoComm IS mathematically better than SoV and you being unwilling to respec and readjust your strategy DOES mean that you are not quite the best heroics tank you could theoretically be. Are you arguing that? Or are you making the valid point that it's kind of like flasking/feasting heroics, i.e., not even close to worth the time and money?
Post by
Quest
Depending on your DPS most of ICC trash is better tanked with SoC as well. Much improved snap aggro to boot.
Saying its useless to
you
is like saying more TPS is useless to you. Doesn't make sense, as you trade zero survivability for it.
I have SoV and SoC macro'd to gear sets, takes me 1.5 seconds to switch. The only real cost to me was the 35g respect as soon as I found out about Shield of Cleave. That was made up within a single heroic or about 2 seconds considering I made a titansteel bar and sold it that day.
Post by
valundar
Im gonna chime in again.
I ran a ^&*!-ton more heroics over the past few days.
SoCleave is BY FAR BETTER than SoV. (remember for heroics)
I'm able to just run from the start to the first boss.
Kill it... then run to next.
and so on....
I cant do that with SoV...they will peel off you if the dps doesnt wait for a few seconds to start...
my snap threat with SoCleave is better.. so the aoe hungry dps can go balls-> wall immediately.
At first the switch is scary.... but trust me, in the end you will absolutely LOVE SoCleave.
P.S.
I've devised a new heroics game.
It is very simple. But gives you something to do now that SoCleave takes worrying about threat off your plate.
Try to make it so that you do the entire heroic casting Divine Plea only once at the start. (understanding that at certain times it isn't possible, ie falling down shaft in spidey land on the way to final boss or waiting for next waves to spawn etc..)
Post by
240282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
Hat, what exactly are you arguing?
That SoComm is inferior on heroics trash?
Or that you think the difference between it and SoV are so small that it isn't worth your time and effort to get used to it?
You haven't exactly been clear and that's an important distinction.
Except is not the effort to get used it, as much as the hassle of having to respect every time I want to switch from raiding to heroics.
I think blade is arguing from a theoretical, min/maxing perspective. SoComm IS mathematically better than SoV and you being unwilling to respec and readjust your strategy DOES mean that you are not quite the best heroics tank you could theoretically be. Are you arguing that? Or are you making the valid point that it's kind of like flasking/feasting heroics, i.e., not even close to worth the time and money?
I agree to the fact that SoComm is mathematically better for tanking heroics. But, yes, I'm also try to make the valid point, as you said, that it's kind of like flasking/feasting heroics. It's not needed, so I'm not going to spend my money and time doing it.
Depending on your DPS most of ICC trash is better tanked with SoC as well. Much improved snap aggro to boot.
Saying its useless to
you
is like saying more TPS is useless to you. Doesn't make sense, as you trade zero survivability for it.
Its not more TPS for ICC trash. And you don't need snap threat for ICC trash, because it comes in 2 flavors big packs where there is a single target priority, and small packs where if people want to AOE it doesn't mater because your hammer with SOV has already stacked 5 stacks by the time they die.
I have SoV and SoC macro'd to gear sets, takes me 1.5 seconds to switch. The only real cost to me was the 35g respect as soon as I found out about Shield of Cleave. That was made up within a single heroic or about 2 seconds considering I made a titansteel bar and sold it that day.
If I had 2 tanking specs I would have a heroics gear set as well. make it have 2 piece 9.5 and 2 piece tier 10, for ton more damage from hammer and 2 seconds down on single taunt, it would be amazing. But like I mentioned before, I need to keep my Ret Set and I need to keep an efficient raid tank spec, and SoComm in a raid is a waste of a point.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Quest
Hat, its more tps on
anything
that dies under about 30-40 seconds.
ANYTHING!
You can argue that its too much a hassle to switch (A button click + 1.5 sec, really?), but the facts are the facts. You are at a TPS loss if you dont have SoC up and things are dead within the timeframe explained in the above link. Many people accept it and dont get it anyway, thats fine, but youre flatout trying to pretend you're doing something optimal when you're not.
Post by
Lorkin
Except is not the effort to get used it, as much as the hassle of having to respect every time I want to switch from raiding to heroics.
I think people keep telling you that you don't need to respec each time you want to use SoCleave. Just do it once, and give up the 1% crit chance to do some stellar SoCleave AoE.
You can't knock it if you haven't tried it really, and it doesn't seem like you are even interested in giving it a shot. Change isn't really that scary, the good players adapt with each
nerf
patch.
Post by
hatman555
Except is not the effort to get used it, as much as the hassle of having to respect every time I want to switch from raiding to heroics.
I think people keep telling you that you don't need to respec each time you want to use SoCleave. Just do it once, and give up the 1% crit chance to do some stellar SoCleave AoE.
You can't knock it if you haven't tried it really, and it doesn't seem like you are even interested in giving it a shot. Change isn't really that scary, the good players adapt with each
nerf
patch.
I have tired it, I have tried it giving it the best conditions possible. Respecting completely and doing a full day worth of heroics with it. Some people say they like it because they can pull from start to finnish and not lose threat......well i can do that with SOV, so far there is no gain there. At the end of the runs, looking at the DPS meters I see that there has been an increase of about 400 DPS over all in my runs with SoComm. So there we go, I agree that SoComm does more damage and thus does more threat, BUT I wasn't having threat problems before.
So it comes down to the fact, Do I want to respect and get SoComm every time I want to do a heroic? No i don't. I don't have problems in heroics with my raiding spec, I constantly run a 6 minute AN, a 8 minute UK, a 10 minute OK, and 12 minute HOL.
As soon as I get home I'm going to set up Fraps on my machine again and start shooting videos for heroics, because I'll be putting them in my
guild
guide anyways.
NOW: For all the people that keep telling me. "dude just take a point out of 1% crit and pick up SoComm" I'm going to keep telling you that NO I will not do that because in a progression raid, Hell in any WOTLK raid, (except maybe Naxx which is now out geared by anyone), SoComm, IS USELESS.
Its like someone coming up to you and saying, hey there, im going to take away 1% of your Crit and give you a doughnut you can eat while you raid. If the Doughnut makes you happier, then sure take the doughnut. but when your DPS needs to hold back for even a second, i think they are going to be pretty @#$%ed that you chose a doughnut over more threat.
Hat, its more tps on
anything
that dies under about 30-40 seconds.
ANYTHING!
You can argue that its too much a hassle to switch (A button click + 1.5 sec, really?), but the facts are the facts. You are at a TPS loss if you dont have SoC up and things are dead within the timeframe explained in the above link. Many people accept it and dont get it anyway, thats fine, but youre flatout trying to pretend you're doing something optimal when you're not.
Here is what your post says:
TLDR Summary:
Rule of thumb for choosing seals:
SoV for 1-2 Mobs and bosses
SoV for AoE tanking things that live for 40+ seconds and that you can reasonably maintain a 5-stack on (so ~6 or fewer mobs at most)
SoCom for 3+ mobs that die in 30 seconds or less, and basically anything else
Alternatively, if you're lazy and don't feel like tab-targetting, you can simplify this to:
SoV for 1-2 mobs/bosses
SoCom for 3+
Again let me illustrate my final views on this. ICC trash and even ulduar trash, per pack, takes about 45-60 seconds to DPS down. I am NOT lazy enough NOT to change my targets. So every trash pack ends up with all or almost all its targets having 5 stacks of SOV.
SoV for AoE tanking things that live for 40+ seconds and that you can reasonably maintain a 5-stack on (so ~6 or fewer mobs at most)
If facts are facts quest. Then I'm doing the right thing for trash in my raids.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Quest
Hat, thats your group. We arnt arguing that. We are arguing that when you have trash that DO take under 30-40 sec to get down SoC is superior. It doesn't matter than your group takes longer. What matters is those that don't.
ICC trash in my groups take around 30 sec. Therefore I would use SoC. And SoC in all of heroics except on bosses. Your aguements are jumping around all over the place in a desperate attempt to rationalize not taking SoC at the cost of 1% crit.
Bottem line:
If trash packs live longer than 40 sec, use SoV. If not, then SoC is superior. If your dps is taking 41 sec to kill ICC trash than great, but that aint the point.
Also consider that DPS can let loose both more early and harder when you use SoC, thus you may see trash dropping faster because they are not TPS capped as much rendering ICC trade dieing faster and making your point null anyway.
Post by
Nazeka
thus you may see trash dropping faster
because they are not TPS capped as much
rendering ICC trade dieing faster and making your point null anyway.
This is EXACTLY why I use SoCleave, more burst threat (at the cost of 1% crit, ironic) means that the dps can go postal with their aoe and what-not sooner rather than later.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.