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I think blizzard went to far this time (Thrall related)
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Post by
Orranis
my question remains, why-o-WHY! don't the horde gets their turn to be the martyrs of the cruel alliance?
why-o-why the alliance isn't painted as a bunch of genocidal maniacs that wanna exterminate inocent lives?
why it must be us?
-.-
if you all want the story to be more "intresting" then why can't it be so from the alliance POV?Because that's not the way Blizzard set up the Alliance.
They are. Defias brotherhood, Orc Enslavement, Draenie bringing Legion to Draenor (Which is really why the Horde is so dark in the first place) just not as much... Also, it makes more sense for it to be Horde, seen as they have always been in conflict with themselves. I agree, something interesting should actually happen to the Alliance, but that doesn't mean it can't be both.
Post by
Orranis
Garithos yes, Daelin Proudmoore yes.
Last I checked it was mostly the BEs who had any right to beef with Garithos and whomever he represented. The Orcs could care less as it's more "Hey look another enemy." - The BEs would probably still be a part of the Alliance if it wasn't for that foo.
so, we get stuck on the role of semi-good, semi-jerkasses for good, while the alliance gets the paint of the white-knight in silver armor for good...........
ohh yhea, that's fair, that's reaaaally fair u know?
Last I checked, you the player was not an Orc, a Troll, a Tauren, a Forsaken nor a Blood Elf.
What is this "we" you speak of?
Be happy you guys are actually interesting.
Post by
Adamsm
my question remains, why-o-WHY! don't the horde gets their turn to be the martyrs of the cruel alliance?
why-o-why the alliance isn't painted as a bunch of genocidal maniacs that wanna exterminate inocent lives?
why it must be us?
-.-
if you all want the story to be more "intresting" then why can't it be so from the alliance POV?Because that's not the way Blizzard set up the Alliance.
BINGO!, biased they are.........
so, we get stuck on the role of semi-good, semi-jerkasses for good, while the alliance gets the paint of the white-knight in silver armor for good...........
ohh yhea, that's fair, that's reaaaally fair u know?
Well, it's how the Alliance is set up; they watch their own people, there a group of 5(6) races who all have the same power/respect/authority; they all police themselves, and when a 'dark' faction within the group shows up, they deal with it quickly and violently.
The Horde is one nation under Thrall... but, due to outside circumstances, Thrall didn't watch the Horde as well as he should have.
You realize that if the Wrathgate had been a group of Alliance people... they would have cut off the head of the leader of whatever group did it....
Garithos yes, Daelin Proudmoore yes.
Last I checked it was mostly the BEs who had any right to beef with Garithos and whomever he represented. The Orcs could care less as it's more "Hey look another enemy." - The BEs would probably still be a part of the Alliance if it wasn't for that foo.]Well yeah heh....
Post by
Rankkor
You realize that if the Wrathgate had been a group of Alliance people... they would have cut off the head of the leader of whatever group did it....
humm and the horde didnt? there is a smoking corpse of varimathras that begs to differ........
Well, it's how the Alliance is set up; they watch their own people
wrong.....
the alliance has as much potential (if not more so) than the horde to be portrayed as the bad-guys for a change.......
there are many individuals that don't fret upon full genocide to acomplish a goal, even the killing of the inocent if it means to stop the threat for good......... from fandral, to the gnomish solution to an invation (radiate and nuke the bastards) to the cap'n of the skybreaker ship, to a rather large ect,
they have the potential to be REALLY cruel, but they aren't simply because the damn biased story writers don't let them, rather they love more to make the horde be the instigator, the one that pushes, the one that trows the first rock, the one tha's evil, the one that is uncivilized and dishonorable....
get my drift?
both factions have potential to be both heroes and villians, and it's up to the story-writers to develop any faction in any direction......
but rather than remain neutral and smite both factions, they choose to smite the horde, with a staggering amount of horrible lore that greatly smears the image and honor of the horde (really, was the broken front REALLY necesary? come on :S that was uncalled for, those writers could had avoided putting that there)
Post by
Patty
BINGO!, biased they are.........
so, we get stuck on the role of semi-good, semi-jerkasses for good, while the alliance gets the paint of the white-knight in silver armor for good...........
ohh yhea, that's fair, that's reaaaally fair u know?
I...must say that I disagree.
There was great
potential
for the Alliance to have bad elements within it. A staged coup d'etat from Fandral, or the house of Nobles doing something unsavoury - Maybe even a High Elf/Night Elf conflict of some sort. Not to mention that Stormwind was under the control of the current Broodmother of the Black Dragonflight for a significant period of time! Varian has stated that he would condone genocide against the Horde, hardly something a "white knight in silver armour's" deed.
The only difference is that Blizzard seemingly forgot about these things.
Edit:
was the broken front REALLY necesary? If the Broken Front is anyone's fault - it's Varians for declaring war on the Horde.
Post by
Adamsm
You realize that if the Wrathgate had been a group of Alliance people... they would have cut off the head of the leader of whatever group did it....
humm and the horde didnt? there is a smoking corpse of varimathras that begs to differ........
Sylvanas isn't dead...... I mean, the actual leader who set up the Blight itself would have been removed.
Well, it's how the Alliance is set up; they watch their own people
wrong.....
the alliance has as much potential (if not more so) than the horde to be portrayed as the bad-guys for a change.......
there are many individuals that don't fret upon full genocide to acomplish a goal, even the killing of the inocent if it means to stop the threat for good......... from fandral, to the gnomish solution to an invation (radiate and nuke the bastards) to the cap'n of the skybreaker ship, to a rather large ect,
they have the potential to be REALLY cruel, but they aren't simply because the damn biased story writers don't let them, rather they love more to make the horde be the instigator, the one that pushes, the one that trows the first rock, the one tha's evil, the one that is uncivilized and dishonorable....
get my drift?
both factions have potential to be both heroes and villians, and it's up to the story-writers to develop any faction in any direction......
but rather than remain neutral and smite both factions, they choose to smite the horde, with a staggering amount of horrible lore that greatly smears the image and honor of the horde (really, was the broken front REALLY necesary? come on :S that was uncalled for, those writers could had avoided putting that there)
...so the Defias, the cult of the Damned, the Druids of the Fang... etc etc. No offense, but if you really look at it, most of the 'evil' factions in games are Alliance races more then Horde ones. The Horde itself has about 3 Dark Factions: Dark Horde in Blackrock, Grimtotem Tribe, and the Burning Blade; beyond that, most of the other 'evil' stuff in Azeroth seems to be more the fault of the Alliance based races.
The Broken Front wasn't necessary.. but it did happen at the orders of Garrosh and the Orgrim Hammer Captain(yeah, he's just as bad as the Skybreaker one....)
Post by
Rankkor
so the Defias, the cult of the Damned, the Druids of the Fang... etc etc. No offense, but if you really look at it, most of the 'evil' factions in games are Alliance races more then Horde ones
the problem is that none of these potential scenarios has ever been developed, I mean, the whole defias and noble corruption thing is never ever mentioned again after lvl 20, same for the druids of the
gang
fang
they may be alliance races, but they hold no relations to the alliance whatsoever, while several of the horde's dark factions work from inside the horde (such as the RAS, the current warsong, and that undead chick that led the atack to theramoore, she was getting her visions on thunderbluff, wich means she was a double-agent inside the horde)
as patty mentioned,, the alliance has as much potential (if not more so) than the horde to be bad, but blizzard REFUSES to touch these plot-arcs and develop them..
why do they refuse? because is more fun to make the horde look bad, taht's why......
Sylvanas isn't dead...... I mean, the actual leader who set up the Blight itself would have been removed.
funny, because gnomer was irradiated (thus turning it and a large amount of terrain near it) into a toxic wasteland, and the one who ordered it was gelbin mettatorke, under advice of his corrupt majordomo, that boss in gnomer....
who got capped? the advisor, but gelbin remains safe and sound......
The Broken Front wasn't necessary.. but it did happen at the orders of Garrosh and the Orgrim Hammer Captain(yeah, he's just as bad as the Skybreaker one....)
what I meant was, that this happened because the writers WANTED it to happen, they are the ones that write the game, the lore, they decide who gets killed or not, who gets redeemed or not, who gets to be evil or not.....
they where the ones who made the desition to make the horde look like major jerks in icecrown with the broken front..... and that was uncalled for, as that mades the horde looks bad, and the horde already looked bad at the wrathgate....
if anything it would had made A LOT MORE SENCE to have made the broken front in reverse, the alliance killing the horde from behind as a retaliation for the wrathgate..
see? now that would had been balance, no favorites, both factions get their time to shine, and their time to look bad.....
but nope, no time to shine for the horde, hell no, the horde is the one who everyone can point fingers when someone asks why is there a war.
Post by
Skreeran
so the Defias, the cult of the Damned, the Druids of the Fang... etc etc. No offense, but if you really look at it, most of the 'evil' factions in games are Alliance races more then Horde onesas patty mentioned,, the alliance has as much potential (if not more so) than the horde to be bad, but blizzard REFUSES to touch these plot-arcs and develop them..
why do they refuse? because is more fun to make the horde look bad, taht's why......While I agree that the Alliance could use more presence to its darkness, I really think you're exaggerating a wee bit.
Post by
Patty
why do they refuse? because is more fun to make the horde look bad, taht's why......
I doubt it's as elaborate as that. I just think they're lazy. :P
Post by
Adamsm
such as the RASHeh, isn't RAS gone though?
why do they refuse? because is more fun to make the horde look bad, taht's why......Or because more people want Horde lore instead of Alliance lore. There are a few users here on wowhead who dislike the 'peaceful' Horde, and I'm sure if you polled the gamer population you'd probably end up 50/50 on those who want peace for the Horde and those who want War.
Post by
Rankkor
whatever...
I just wish I could see the reactions of the alliance-player section of the game, IF blizzard finnaly decided to develop the darker sides of the allliance and break their image of shiny white-knights........
then I'd love to see if they actually love to get "that" kind of development....
I just want to feel proud of my horde, and it's hard to feel proud when I see crap like the broken front, or having all non-orcs expelled from orgrimmar, and a rather long list of plot-arcs that simply put, place the horde to shame...... and utterly destroy the honorable awesome image established on warcraft 3.
simple as that..
would the alliance players like it if it was on their side? I doubt it............
Post by
Adamsm
I'd love it myself; I wouldn't mind more conflict Alliance side as it would actually give the other leaders who aren't Jaina and Varian something to do lol.
But again, just like Tauren... your borrowing trouble, you really are. You don't like where Blizzard is taking the Horde, then go back and just play WC3.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
You realize that if the Wrathgate had been a group of Alliance people... they would have cut off the head of the leader of whatever group did it...
You and I know very well what would happen is that the same event would happen except in an Alliance city, with the two people responsible being split between Alliance and Horde, with Jaina porting Thrall/Garrosh instead of porting Varian ;p
Honestly, the more I think about this, the more that would have made for an interesting dynamic. Especially since Jaina would just poof as Garrosh would try to kill her.
No I meant the way the Alliance itself works; had it been found that the Gnome King had created the Blight, the other leaders would have called for him to be executed for treason and murder.
But all Sylvanas get's for creating a super weapon is a slap on the wrist and an increased guard watch that should have been there from the start.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Would the Alliance have killed Mekkatorque had they dropped the radiation gas in the middle of Wrathgate? Especially if it's shown that it was really all Thermaplugg's fault?Not the first time they've removed a king for treason(I see the creation of the Blight itself as something treasonous), they got rid of Pernolde after all at the end of the Second War.
Post by
Monday
But all Sylvanas get's for creating a super weapon is a slap on the wrist and an increased guard watch that should have been there from the start.
The bigger problem is how the event unfolds - we remember the Wrathgate, but we don't remember what happened "before" - the coup. Sylvanas had nothing to do with Varimathras' betrayal, and the fact that she almost died (again) at the rebellion's hands shows that, while she indeed authorized development of the Blight, it'd be safe to say she didn't escape unscathed. In fact, this brush with permadeath is probably what bought her more time to "live" - Had she led the rebellion, she'd be pushing daisies in many pieces. Instead, the undead &*!@#'s on a short leash in Cata.
I'd dare say this would be the same as Gnomeregan, except it affected everyone instead of only Gnomes. Would the Alliance have killed Mekkatorque had they dropped the radiation gas in the middle of Wrathgate? Especially if it's shown that it was really all Thermaplugg's fault? I'll grant you Thermaplugg isn't a frickin' demon though. Now THAT little move was dumb as hell (oh sure my vast powers can enslave a demon lord that could likely roflstomp me into the ground at any time he wishes. What do you mean he broke free and rebelled?)
But yah - There's a good chance that, were the Alliance faced with the exact same situation, they wouldn't have killed the person in charge. Even with Varian "All must be right or die that's the law of samurai erm Stormwind" Wrynn in charge.
Mekkatorque isn't dead ebcause he tried to do that to save his people. The radiation was a byproduct, not a poision designed by Mekkatorque to specifically kill.
Post by
Adamsm
But all Sylvanas get's for creating a super weapon is a slap on the wrist and an increased guard watch that should have been there from the start.
The bigger problem is how the event unfolds - we remember the Wrathgate, but we don't remember what happened "before" - the coup. Sylvanas had nothing to do with Varimathras' betrayal, and the fact that she almost died (again) at the rebellion's hands shows that, while she indeed authorized development of the Blight, it'd be safe to say she didn't escape unscathed. In fact, this brush with permadeath is probably what bought her more time to "live" - Had she led the rebellion, she'd be pushing daisies in many pieces. Instead, the undead &*!@#'s on a short leash in Cata.
I'd dare say this would be the same as Gnomeregan, except it affected everyone instead of only Gnomes. Would the Alliance have killed Mekkatorque had they dropped the radiation gas in the middle of Wrathgate? Especially if it's shown that it was really all Thermaplugg's fault? I'll grant you Thermaplugg isn't a frickin' demon though. Now THAT little move was dumb as hell (oh sure my vast powers can enslave a demon lord that could likely roflstomp me into the ground at any time he wishes. What do you mean he broke free and rebelled?)
But yah - There's a good chance that, were the Alliance faced with the exact same situation, they wouldn't have killed the person in charge. Even with Varian "All must be right or die that's the law of samurai erm Stormwind" Wrynn in charge.
Mekkatorque isn't dead ebcause he tried to do that to save his people. The radiation was a byproduct, not a poision designed by Mekkatorque to specifically kill.
I only used the Gnome king as an example because they out of all the Alliance races would have probably figured out something similar to the Blight.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
Mekkatorque isn't dead ebcause he tried to do that to save his people. The radiation was a byproduct, not a poision designed by Mekkatorque to specifically kill.
I only used the Gnome king as an example because they out of all the Alliance races would have probably figured out something similar to the Blight.
I'm saying that were the Alliance in the exact same situation, Mekkatorque would be a slight bit more alive than Sylvanas (y'know, 'cause of that whole undead thing).
It'd probably have happened differently though (Bronzebeard would have likely interfered on the Gnomes' behalf rather than be met by Blizzard's indifference in showing the scene) as Varian isn't as close to Mekkatorque as Thrall is to Sylvanas (after all, he had to negociate in order to get them in the Horde, and if you notice, Sylvanas doesn't go to the BEs for shelter - she goes to Org).
I personally wouldn't trust my life to Blood Elves, so I think I understand her. But seriously, Thrall and Sylvanas are in no way good buddies. Its an Alliance of convenience, and lately it has become a little strained.
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