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I think blizzard went to far this time (Thrall related)
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Post by
Skreeran
Some people want a strong, war-loving leader of oldI could agree with this to some extent. The problem with Thrall is that he is too liberal, and he trusts too much.
The problem with Doomhammer could be summerized in that he was too conservative and did not try hard enough for peace and change.
Someone in between would be ideal, a leader who is experienced and willing to fight a war, but understands that peace is more ideal.
which Garrosh fits the criteria of.And this is the part where I disagree greatly.
Not only is Garrosh far more violent than Doomhammer, to the point of not even being tactically prudent, he also is tremendously inexperienced. Thrall may have been inexperienced, but he has the experience of the spirits to rely upon, and was heavily trained in war and tactics while a slave. Garrosh sucked at leading even just his own clan until a few months ago. He is in no war a good candidate for Warchief.
Post by
Patty
Some people want a strong, war-loving leader of oldI could agree with this to some extent. The problem with Thrall is that he is too liberal, and he trusts too much.
The problem with Doomhammer could be summerized in that he was too conservative and did not try hard enough for peace and change.
Someone in between would be ideal, a leader who is experienced and willing to fight a war, but understands that peace is more ideal.
Well....Thrall was also raised by humans and some people may claim that he is therefore not a true Orc and thinks too much like a human.
which Garrosh fits the criteria of.And this is the part where I disagree greatly.
Not only is Garrosh far more violent than Doomhammer, to the point of not even being tactically prudent, he also is tremendously inexperienced. Thrall may have been inexperienced, but he has the experience of the spirits to rely upon, and was heavily trained in war and tactics while a slave. Garrosh sucked at leading even just his own clan until a few months ago. He is in no war a good candidate for Warchief.Blizzard have stated that Garrosh's character is subject to change. :P
Also, Garrosh is the leader of the Horde offensive on Northrend - I would say him and his advisors have done a pretty damn well good job so far.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Also, Garrosh is the leader of the Horde offensive on Northrend - I would say him
and his advisors
have done a pretty damn well good job so far.
All glory to Saurfang on this one - if it hadn't been for him, I doubt the offensive would have gone well.
^_^
I never stated who I thought was best. If it was truly Saurfang's genius which made the offensive so successful - power to Garrosh for actually listening!
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
There's a reason why they put in the dialogue between the two - to show that Garrosh doesn't listen. Hell, you even have a quest that has Saurfang get your ass out of the fire because of Garrosh's bad decisions!
You don't understand what I'm saying. I personally think that it was a combination of Saurfang and Garrosh's wit, cunning and experience* which has made the offensive successful. Mistakes have been made, sure, but they were sorted before the kodo doo-doo hit the revolving blades of an electrical object.
*experience referring to Saurfang only.
Post by
Adamsm
See, this is where we're all disagreeing:
So, because Thrall leaves, that means the Spirit of the Horde is gone right? Because, if he's not there in Orgrimmar, he's obviously not leading his people........
You and Rank are looking at it from the Wrong angle, and your Velen analogy was wrong as well: The Prophet Velen is the 'overall leader' of the Draenei people; yes, he can leave the Exodar and travel the world, and leave a person in place to continue to run things while he's off.... and maybe this new leader doesn't do the same things he does... but he was hand picked by Velen to take over for him while he's off dealing with a much larger threat to the World, a threat that if it get's loose would threaten not only the Draenei, but the rest of Azeroth.
So, and here's the
BIG
thing; It Still Hasn't Been Put Down How Garrosh Becomes Warchief..... myself? I see Thrall leaving him in charge while he heads off to do whatever he's doing when he get's captured by the 'humans' and goes on to save the Goblins and get them into the Horde, then, on the heels of that emergency, the Firelord strikes, and Malfurion and the others ask the Shaman to come to Hyjal.
I get it, you two love Thrall... but not everyone does; so, again, Wait and See, stop moaning and complaining till you have the entire story; and no matter what happens, Thrall is still the 'Spirit' of the Horde and the true Warchief. More then likely Garrosh is 'acting-Warchief' as Bolvar was the Reagent Lord of Stormwind during the time Varian was missing.
Post by
469682
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Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
So, and here's the
BIG
thing; It Still Hasn't Been Put Down How Garrosh Becomes Warchief..... myself? I see Thrall leaving him in charge while he heads off to do whatever he's doing when he get's captured by the 'humans' and goes on to save the Goblins and get them into the Horde, then, on the heels of that emergency, the Firelord strikes, and Malfurion and the others ask the Shaman to come to Hyjal.
This is something I don't get - I'm surprised Nobundo's not in on this.
We don't know who all is actually there at this point... but well, as much as I love Nobundo, it might be better for him to remain where he is.... after all, putting all your super strong forces in one basket is a bad idea heh.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I could agree with this to some extent. The problem with Thrall is that he is too liberal, and he trusts too much.
The problem with Doomhammer could be summerized in that he was too conservative and did not try hard enough for peace and change.
Someone in between would be ideal, a leader who is experienced and willing to fight a war, but understands that peace is more ideal.
I'm actully pretty surprised by this statement Skeeren...
After all he's done and still doing for his people, you just pass off Thrall as a liberal who to soft spoken?
Perhaps you remember
this
quest? If he's a liberal as you say, would this not be a contradictory?
The man wants to ensure that the future of his people is safeguarded and that there is a future. There isn't anything he needs to be aggresive with against the alliance, so that he aims for peace isn't a sign of weakness.
And you know what else. If blizzard just molded together what people think would be a perfect warchief, taking peices of every character in lore into one person... ppl would still flame him and say he doesn't do this or that and he's two dimensional or something else. The reason I defend Thralls character, is because he is the genuine article, an orc with all the savage qualities of a orcish leader, with the intellect and foresight of a human commander, and the wisdom of a shaman. People just seem to forget this.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
The thing is, Thrall really is too trusting. He trusted Sylvanas to do her job unsupervised, and hundreds have lost their lives because of it. He will hand out the punishment when he gets there, but he's not perfect. He is still one of the orcish race's greatest heroes.
As for Doomhammer, he may not have played well with others, but he ran a tight ship.
Post by
hymer
There's a reason why they put in the dialogue between the two - to show that Garrosh doesn't listen.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to take issue with this.
What is your definition of listening, then? The same with Varian "who never listens to others", and yet time and again takes the time to listen. Varian allowed Jaina and his son to persuade him to attempt peace. Garrosh ends up doing things the way Saurfang wants it. Shylock never
actually
takes the knife to Antonio's flesh, and we never find out if he would have.
I think it's perfectly acceptable to read the conversation between Saurfang and Garrosh as Garrosh learning. It takes a fairly heavy hand to teach him much, but here Saurfang is absolutely the right choice. Thrall is grooming Garrosh, hard as it may be.
Also note that a leader who does whatever the person talking to him says isn't really that much of a leader.
Post by
Patty
I'm actully pretty surprised by this statement Skeeren...
After all he's done and still doing for his people, you just pass off Thrall as a liberal who to soft spoken?I like Thrall, but he
is
too liberal, Tauren. If he was a bit stricter he
might
have stopped the Wrathgate from happening. He
might
have noticed and put a stop to the Blood Knights draining Muru.
And you know what else. If blizzard just molded together what people think would be a perfect warchief, taking peices of every character in lore into one person... ppl would still flame him and say he doesn't do this or that and he's two dimensional or something else. The reason I defend Thralls character, is because he is the genuine article, an orc with all the savage qualities of a orcish leader, with the
intellect and foresight of a human commander
, and the wisdom of a shaman. People just seem to forget this.This is probably why he is unpopular to some of his own people. Having "human" Qualities doesn't really sit right in traditional Orcish culture. Especially when you've been in a
concentration
internment camp for the last 20 years, jailed by humans.
Post by
Rankkor
I get it, you two love Thrall... but not everyone does; so, again, Wait and See, stop moaning and complaining till you have the entire story; and no matter what happens, Thrall is still the 'Spirit' of the Horde and the true Warchief.
More then likely Garrosh is 'acting-Warchief' as Bolvar was the Reagent Lord of Stormwind during the time Varian was missing
.
this.....
I really, honestly, deeply DO.NOT.CARE if they make garrosh a better orc, or not, I-DO-NOT-CARE.
it's enough that it won't be the same as thrall, that's reason enough to not like garrosh's leadership, even if they deepen his character, even if they fix his flaws and make him a perfect mary-sueish jesus-orc, no matter how much PR, and remodelign they do, he-is-NOT-Trhall.
and that won't change, not now, not later, not ever..............
I want Thrall as the warchief, why fix what is not broken? he's a great lead, why all of the sudden have a dude who was a mister-nobody become the leader of the horde?
I honestly, hope is as u said, that garrosh will be like Bolvar, a temporal leader, and that at some point thrall get's back on the seat, because if garrosh is gonna be the warchief for good, that will suck in at least 50 diferent ways..........
is pointless to judge garrosh as he is now, since he's gonna change on cataclysm, but no matter how much he changes he is simply not thrall.
this is almost as trying to have the TV show 24 without jack bauer, or prison break without michael scofield, or Metal Gear without Solid snake, Dragon Ball without Goku, Ronin Kenshin without kenshin, naruto without naruto, or Lord of the rings without frodo...... (humm actually in that last case taht would be an improvement xD)
point is............ blizzard is really boning the horde on cata....
not only we don't have thrall as warchief, someone I'm proud to defend and die for when alliance players dare to set foot on ogrimar, we also loose cairne, non-orcs get expelled from org, there's rumors that cairne's death is at the hand of garrosh himself, and worst......
do the alliance get the same treatment? strife among them? 2 leaders replaced/removed? na, they get a new city (gnomer) loose a few camps, and that's about it.......
it seems to me that blizzard loves to make the horde "the scape goat" of wow..
as it is, they owe us BIG TIME, for the wrathgate, it should be the alliance's turn to suffer in cata.......
but it seems that the situation for the horde in cataclyms will be getting worst and worst by the minute, while the alliance is getting better and better.......
whenever they wanna spark some conflict from alliance and horde, it's the horde that causes it......... -.-
and I'm sick of it, if they wanted to bring war to warcraft, why not have varian kill an orc baby? ohhh nooo, we can't posibly smear the honor and holyness of the alliance, nope, the horde is the bad-guys, they are the ones who must provoke the war........
-.-
"blizzard is neutral my boot"
Post by
Monday
I get it, you two love Thrall... but not everyone does; so, again, Wait and See, stop moaning and complaining till you have the entire story; and no matter what happens, Thrall is still the 'Spirit' of the Horde and the true Warchief.
More then likely Garrosh is 'acting-Warchief' as Bolvar was the Reagent Lord of Stormwind during the time Varian was missing
.
this.....
I really, honestly, deeply DO.NOT.CARE if they make garrosh a better orc, or not, I-DO-NOT-CARE.
it's enough that it won't be the same as thrall, that's reason enough to not like garrosh's leadership, even if they deepen his character, even if they fix his flaws and make him a perfect mary-sueish jesus-orc, no matter how much PR, and remodelign they do, he-is-NOT-Trhall.
and that won't change, not now, not later, not ever..............
I want Thrall as the warchief, why fix what is not broken? he's a great lead, why all of the sudden have a dude who was a mister-nobody become the leader of the horde?
I honestly, hope is as u said, that garrosh will be like Bolvar, a temporal leader, and that at some point thrall get's back on the seat, because if garrosh is gonna be the warchief for good, that will suck in at least 50 diferent ways..........
is pointless to judge garrosh as he is now, since he's gonna change on cataclysm, but no matter how much he changes he is simply not thrall.
this is almost as trying to have the TV show 24 without jack bauer, or prison break without michael scofield, or Metal Gear without Solid snake, Dragon Ball without Goku, Ronin Kenshin without kenshin, naruto without naruto, or Lord of the rings without frodo...... (humm actually in that last case taht would be an improvement xD)
point is............ blizzard is really boning the horde on cata....
not only we don't have thrall as warchief, someone I'm proud to defend and die for when alliance players dare to set foot on ogrimar, we also loose cairne, non-orcs get expelled from org, there's rumors that cairne's death is at the hand of garrosh himself, and worst......
do the alliance get the same treatment? strife among them? 2 leaders replaced/removed? na, they get a new city (gnomer) loose a few camps, and that's about it.......
it seems to me that blizzard loves to make the horde "the scape goat" of wow..
as it is, they owe us BIG TIME, for the wrathgate, it should be the alliance's turn to suffer in cata.......
but it seems that the situation for the horde in cataclyms will be getting worst and worst by the minute, while the alliance is getting better and better.......
whenever they wanna spark some conflict from alliance and horde, it's the horde that causes it......... -.-
and I'm sick of it, if they wanted to bring war to warcraft, why not have varian kill an orc baby? ohhh nooo, we can't posibly smear the honor and holyness of the alliance, nope, the horde is the bad-guys, they are the ones who must provoke the war........
-.-
"blizzard is neutral my boot"
Four things. A: Everybody suffered equally at Wrathgate. You could even say the Alliance suffered more because they had more of their soldiers killed at Wrathgate because they were the first to engage the Scourge, and Bolvar is killed. HORDE DID NOT SUFFER MORE AT WRATHGATE.
B. Blizzard has always been on the Horde's side a bit more. Most of the big people in Blizzard say they are Horde, and if you look at the BattleCry Mosaic, there are more Horde fans than Alliance. Perhaps it was time to have the Horde get hit once for a change.
C.You "lose" two leaders. Thrall is helping battle Ragnaros. What does this mean? He's not just sitting his butt on that Throne, he is actually helping his people. We don't know what is happening to Cairne at all.
D. "Lose a few camps?" We lose a LOT of ground, including the last large city of the night elves in Ashenvale, Astranaar. And we also lose Auberdine in darkshore. WHile those are just NIght Elves being hit, those are two of their largest cities, which is saying a lot for the NIght Elves. That does not hardly constitute "A few camps".
Edit: Oh and I won't be able to check this for five hours, so don't expect an answer until then.
Post by
Adamsm
/sigh
Can't really put anything here as Funden already made the points; Still Unconfirmed that Cairne is dying(I'm guessing it was just a bad rumour now at this point), Thrall isn't lost he's dealing with a much larger threat.
As Funden said; the Night elves are under near constant attack by the Warsong in Astranaar, Southshore is getting wiped out by the tidal waves, we don't know what's going on in Desolace or Feralas so there's still lots of areas out there to find out what's going on.
Post by
Skreeran
Yo Fund, you misunderstood Cata. He doesn't mean that the Horde suffered more about the Wrathgate, he's meaning that Blizzard owes the Horde for the Wrathgate because of how bad it looks for the Horde.
The Horde suffering tragedy or "getting hit" is just fine in my opinion. I don't so much mind if the Scourge or Alliance hurts the Horde, as that's a fine story-mover. What I do mind is when the Horde is made to look like the villains. What Rank is saying, and I desire, is for Blizzard to show equal darkness in the Alliance, to prove that it's not merely another "Alliance good; Horde bad" thing.
Post by
313143
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