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Why Paladin tanks don't like shields, and why they shouldn't complain.
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Post by
OscarDivine
Right, but taunts can miss. Usually with 8% hit however, they don't miss. However, we have TWO taunts. so its gravy.
Edit: i read this fromt he start again. Pretty sure your not supposed to use Conscerate on Suarfang.
You CAN, but you have to time it to happen AFTER the blood beasts have already left and are way out of your range. Do NOT hit Consecrate or HotR at ANY time just before the beasts appear as you have a good chance of pulling one onto you, making it difficult to pull off. And it will give Saurfang blood.
Post by
Squishalot
Now... If you're sitting there tanking the boss until you get X stacks of the bad stuff, the other tank taunts it off of you, then you go away and pee...
And again, you're missing the point that this is all nice and planned and so on. Easy tank swapping fight.
What you're not noting is the fact that a 'tank swap' fight isn't the same as being a 'backup tank' - you've essentially got two MTs, not a MT / OT.
I don't end-game raid, but last time I saw, you would have a backup tank ready to take aggro and hold the line, for the occasion when the healer blinks or the MT runs into the fire, or any other reason. Your backup isn't going to taunt off the MT, unless the healers are ready for it (in which case, why aren't they healing the MT?). If current end-game raids are so easy and predictable that it's not necessary to have a backup tank any more, then goodo, but I'm not a subscriber to the theory that MT wipe = raid wipe.
70k with righteous Fury up? i feel that math is a little off.
Yeah, it seemed a little short to me too. I might be underestimating the amount of damage that a raiding tank does. But remember, we're only talking 3 seconds here though, that's 23k TPS for that period.
Edit: Ok, I just did some Google research - you don't need to burst past the 10%, you just need to make sure that noone else gets 10% past you.
So by not shadowing your MT's threat, only 1 DPS dies, not 2 :P
Post by
OscarDivine
Back up tank? What the frick? Where is this coming from? I don't know ANYBODY who runs with an extra tank just sitting around in prot gear just waiting for the real tanks to die.
We call that a wipe in my raids. And we try again, simple as that. You'll never beat a DPS race if you're sitting there with extra luggage like "backup tanks". Where is this idea even FROM anyway?
I certainly hope you don't run with "backup tanks" aside from your 2 tanks that you normally run with. We require each of our tanks to have backup DPS gear so that in the event that they cannot or are not called on to tank, they can contribute with some kind of DPS.
Post by
ande9249
hehehe, it comes from the anchient lands when Shamans were off tanks and warlocks intentionally pulled threat so they could kite with dots.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I certainly hope you don't run with "backup tanks" aside from your 2 tanks that you normally run with. We require each of our tanks to have backup DPS gear so that in the event that they cannot or are not called on to tank, they can contribute with some kind of DPS.
So in the event that (in an ideal encounter) you need one less tank, you'll have them in their DPS gear?
Personal thing, but I disagree. Unless you're seriously concerned about hitting enrage timers, I would have thought that 2-3k extra DPS isn't as important as an insurance policy on your raid. You call that a wipe, fair enough. I'd rather not have to pay the repair bills just because someone screws up.
A priest complained that their paladin said it was a threat issue, and we demonstrated now that there is no threat issue. There's still a mana issue.Er. Did I miss something? Mana = Threat. That's all you have mana for: Activating abilities to generate threat. If there is no threat problem, there is no mana problem. You might go low on mana occasionally, but if you're holding aggro, then that is
not a problem
.
Someone complained that they couldn't generate threat from their blocked abilities while shielded. This was plausible, in the context of AoE fights where mana wasn't an issue, but ensuring that you had threat on everybody was. This was shot down once we confirmed that 'on block' and 'on hit' abilities still procced appropriately, irrespective of shields.
So that particular threat issue is a non-issue.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OscarDivine
So in the event that (in an ideal encounter) you need one less tank, you'll have them in their DPS gear?
Personal thing, but I disagree. Unless you're seriously concerned about hitting enrage timers, I would have thought that 2-3k extra DPS isn't as important as an insurance policy on your raid. You call that a wipe, fair enough. I'd rather not have to pay the repair bills just because someone screws up.
I'm in utter shock that you're serious about this. I have nothing more to say. All credibility you have on these matters has just... fizzled. out. *pfffft*
Post by
Paolo
He already acknowledged that he doesn't raid. This entire discussion was how to heal leveling tankadins, 5-mans, and some imagined "in theory" raids as assessed by a someone who doesn't raid.
Who sure did postalot.
Post by
Squishalot
Additionally, in progression content on 10-mans, it is generally the case that one death means a wipe, even if it's "just" a DPS. Enrage timers are tight -- see Putricide.
You didn't actually answer my question, by the way: How does a mana issue exist if a threat issue does not exist? The two go hand-in-hand.
Ah sorry, I misinterpreted the question, but still answered it moreorless. There will be a general threat issue, as a result of the lack of mana. There won't be the minor threat 'issue' that was raised on large AoE packs, hence 'that particular threat issue'.
As for progression content, why does everybody assume that 'progression = ICC'? Progression is any damn heroic or raid that you happen to be up to. I don't raid generally, progression for me at this point of time = entering raids, not jumping into the most recently released hardest boss. My main sits in a social guild - progression for them would be clearing the first quarter in Naxx.
Consider that
not everybody is end-game standard
- as I've said before, if everybody was intelligent enough to raid ICC, then they're intelligent enough to manage any mana problems they have.
I'm in utter shock that you're serious about this. I have nothing more to say. All credibility you have on these matters has just... fizzled. out. *pfffft*
See above. Not everyone is an end-game raider and plays with others who play more online than they study or work. Casual people will occasionally want to try a raid as well. I'm not going to ditch the guys I get along with for a more hard-core guild, I work with what I've got and plan accordingly. If that means having a wipe-insurance policy, so be it. I don't have the time or patience to do a graveyard run every time someone accidentally steps into the fire.
You're assuming all your teammates execute their jobs perfectly, and you'll go apes#it at someone who screws up and causes a wipe. I'm assuming that it doesn't all go to plan, and try to put measures in place so it causes minimal pain
when
it does happen. There's nothing wrong with either, as long as everyone in the raid is happy with it.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
End game gearing <> end game standard. Isn't that why raiders are moaning over the welfare epics? Int on gear, unfortunately, doesn't translate to intelligence of players.
And I know I inferred it from you quoting Putricide. But there's the simple fact that there are still raid bosses like Patchwerk (and anything in Naxx, for that matter), where clearing the enrage timer isn't a big deal anymore with today's gear level. Wiping is due to raid coordination and healers/tanks stuffing up. So the idea that 'enrage timers are tight in progression content' doesn't always hold.
But you do have the patience to raid with people whom you basically admit are not as highly skilled as those you deem "hardcore": i.e., screwing up is more prone to happen. Go figure.
I do, because without them, I wouldn't get any raiding at all (notwithstanding the fact that I haven't played my Paladin in a couple of months now), since I don't play (regularly or totally) enough to raid with a higher end guild. I theorycraft more than I raid, which is why I don't play a healer, as it's not really modellable.
My guild has a high enough chance of wiping as is. Why increase the likelihood of a wipe, for the sake of adding some DPS that doesn't really help us at all?
-----
Anyway, we're getting horribly sidetracked. A note like this is aimed at the ignorant and the more-needy, otherwise it wouldn't be required. Fact of the matter is, there are paladins who complain about mana issues while being shielded. Whether or not it makes sense to have a 'backup tank', this is one example of an occasion where it can happen. A disc priest will be part of the raid agreeing to have a backup tank. So instead of arguing with me over whether it's necessary, just nod and smile and say "that raid is n00b". Then if the disc priest wants to stay in that raid, tell them to put their shields on the MT.
Post by
OscarDivine
See above. Not everyone is an end-game raider and plays with others who play more online than they study or work. Casual people will occasionally want to try a raid as well. I'm not going to ditch the guys I get along with for a more hard-core guild, I work with what I've got and plan accordingly. If that means having a wipe-insurance policy, so be it. I don't have the time or patience to do a graveyard run every time someone accidentally steps into the fire.
ok I get this, but this doesn't change basic strategy and awareness of mechanics of the fight. You are the first and only player who has ever brought up the idea of a "back up tank".
You're assuming all your teammates execute their jobs perfectly, and you'll go apes#it at someone who screws up and causes a wipe. I'm assuming that it doesn't all go to plan, and try to put measures in place so it causes minimal pain
when
it does happen. There's nothing wrong with either, as long as everyone in the raid is happy with it.
As a raid leader, I do have expectations for my raiders. This doesn't mean I get angry if we don't succeed on our first try every time. In fact, I've actually been noted to be a very even tempered raid leader on more than one occasion.
If all doesn't go according to plan, we change our plan when we try again, which means we're trying again. There's nothing wrong with wiping, so long as you know what went wrong and can correct for it. I don't understand your aversion to wiping, it's a part of this game. Personally, I think that if you have an extra player tanking in your group it would increase your odds of wiping overall because the fights will be prolonged. As well, if you DO wipe, it will be all the more painful
when
you do.
edit: my pally tank has only 1/2 Spiritual Attunement. I don't have mana issues even still.
Post by
Squishalot
In my 'progression' raids, there isn't a significant amount of difference in DPS between me tanking and me DPS'ing (nor the other tanks in my guild), so at the moment, it makes precious little difference to our fight length, especially at early gear levels. The DPS difference could easily be chalked up to the raid's overall RNG luck, even. But I take your point on.
And yes, your pally should only have 1/2 SA, that's a standard. As a main tank, you shouldn't ever have mana issues, full stop. We're all agreed on that.
Post by
Paolo
Please stop.
Pally forums are
that way
. This is no longer (and dare I say, never was) a conversation that was of interest to priests. One or two points, ok, but six pages of ...? I don't think so.
Time to just let it go.
Post by
karlusdavius
Agree with Paolo. We proved the point a while back and the original test that was quoted was false anyway.
In essence, for anyone reading this.
Power Word: Shield will not stop block effects. It will not hurt your mana regeneration to a point where your starved. It will save your life. It will not hinder your ability to produce threat. It will not hinder your ability to OT in a raid situation.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Paolo, explain that to your priest buddies who keep bringing up tanking mechanics and insist on discussing the original post from a tanking perspective? Despite me trying to drop that line of discussion on multiple occasions? There are two pages of tanking discussion in this thread that I wasn't even involved in.
Fact - Shields reduce the mana recovery of a paladin (by a minor amount, that gets worse as gearing increases).
Opinion - how much it really makes a difference, dependent on circumstance.
Relevance - scrub paladins who can't manage their mana.
People who this thread was aimed at - priests who run with aforementioned scrub paladins and are unsure of whether it's true.
I wanted to try to highlight circumstances in which a paladin might have valid grounds for complaining due to mana starvation, and when a Disc Priest should take more care, rather than calling a paladin a n00b (like in all the other cases). It doesn't matter that it doesn't happen very often, or that it shouldn't happen, it only matters that it *does* happen.
Wowwiki
even cites one 'popular' definition of off-tanking as what I describe, but that's what people have been arguing with me over - the 'it never happens' aspect.
So yes, I'm very happy to drop arguments over ideal tanking situations / mechanics / definition of progression, because I was dragged into them in the first place, and never intended on going there.. To requote myself slightly earlier:
A note like this is aimed at the ignorant and the more-needy, otherwise it wouldn't be required. Fact of the matter is, there are paladins who complain about mana issues while being shielded.
Whether or not it makes sense to have a 'backup tank', this is one example of an occasion where it can happen.
A disc priest will be part of the raid agreeing to have a backup tank. So instead of arguing with me over whether it's necessary, just nod and smile and say "that raid is n00b". Then if the disc priest wants to stay in that raid, tell them to put their shields on the MT.
So for the third or fourth time, can I say that we're agreed? And drop the rest?
Post by
karlusdavius
Everytime somebody posts in this thread from here on out, A deathtard, Huntard and a Retard are born.
Please, think of the PuG's...
Post by
TalonDemonKing
Hi; Sorry for the late post/thread necro/beating the dead horse, but I couldn't sit well with this. I had to create a WoWhead account just to throw my 2cp in. I originally came here for advice on my disc priest leveling (As I loved seeing them heal my paladin), but this thread caught my eye.
Wrath has bred a new kind of Paladin: A bad one. Lured by the revamped specs, we're seeing more and more people play paladins, and more people = more bad players.
There is no realistic scenario that I can think of that I've done where a prot paladin off tank cannot get enough damage intake to make anyone warrant telling a priest not to shield them.
If you're complaining about mana problems, you're not using your tools. Namely, you're 'Delete character' Button. I cannot think of a single raid/heroic I've been on where the opportunity to take damage wasn't there. Fire/ice/poison patches on the ground, exploding ghouls, explosive laser eyebeams... You name it, the boss fight will have it.
Even if you don't have something bad to stand in, you can always simply target the tank and use your
Hand of Let me take your damage
, or if theres alot of raid damage flying around (Phase 1 Malagos, Fire boss in VoA), you can always throw out the
Where did my HP go?
ability. Even with them being on two-minute cooldowns, you can still find ways between them to take enough damage to pop shield + take damage on any boss to keep the mana flowing.
Even in Heroics, you can still turn around, and let mobs attack you from behind for a few to build up some damage to have it healed, then returned to you. Ontop of that, if you feel like you have mana problems, you CAN do 2/2
SA
, as nothing is stopping you from, y'know, not following the cookie cutter spec.
All in all, my apologies for reviving this topic, but it needed to be said.
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