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PTR
10.2.5
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10.2.6
Why Paladin tanks don't like shields, and why they shouldn't complain.
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Post by
dhampir1989
The wrong side of the "caring so much about being hot they aren't" line.
Like so many.
Post by
karlusdavius
The wrong side of the "caring so much about being hot they aren't" line.
Like so many.
what? she is amazingly hot. Naturally hot. She has
CURVES
! and isn't pathetically stick thin!
Post by
dhampir1989
The wrong side of the "caring so much about being hot they aren't" line.
Like so many.
what? she is amazingly hot. Naturally hot. She has
CURVES
! and isn't pathetically stick thin!
Yea, but as someone in a relationship with, and friends with, bi females, that song reeked of attention seeking.
Post by
karlusdavius
and i gave it her with every inch of my gaze.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OscarDivine
so I'm actually going to make an attempt to put this thread back on track because I really didn't mean to derail the thread this much.
@SlowSide:
OT's rarely have to maintain threat on a target at 2nd place, and in the occasions they do have to, they're getting cleaved or hit for massive damage already busting our shields, and allowing the paladin mana return.
When you AREN'T forced to maintain 2nd in aggro position, you shouldn't have to do much to keep your mana flowing anyhow. I still have yet to hear of a single instance where this happens. I SUPPOSE it could conceivably happen during the Rotface fight if you're the one stuck kiting the big Ooze, but any non-DK tank would encounter the problem regardless. At least pallies have DP to keep them going.
Post by
SlowSide
@ karlusdavius - Pally taunts are based off of spell hit, so it is not feasible for a pally to be hit capped for it. There is a glyph to help, but I have yet to see a pally tank with it. Unlike Warriors many pally tanks aren't hit capped b/c it's a fair bit down the list for threat, so most do not gem or enchant for it.
Also a vast majority of our threat comes from holy damage, we can not just swing & judge & maintain any reasonable amount of threat against any decent DPS.
@ All - I suppose it is just too much to ask for a healer to adjust their play style to make the tanks life easier.
Also you're right what does an OT need threat for, it's not like anything unexpected ever happens... and besides I've never once seen a tank taunt something only to have it return to what it was attacking before a few seconds later.
Oh well, just keep telling those pallies who complain to L2P.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
SlowSide
Also you're right what does an OT need threat for, it's not like anything unexpected ever happens... and besides I've never once seen a tank taunt something only to have it return to what it was attacking before a few seconds later.
You should know that if one of the tanks dies on a tank-switch fight, the other tank
taunts
to take over, just as he would if he were taunting as part of the switch rotation -- and, besides which, if one of the tanks dies,
it's probably a wipe anyway
. Are you seriously still defending your position when your arguments are getting more and more watery?
Oh no, this will be my last post. I'm done, it's obvious Priests know more about Pally Tanking than several pallies, or all of those who complain.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OscarDivine
@ All - I suppose it is just too much to ask for a healer to adjust their play style to make the tanks life easier.
I would say that the tank in this case is making their life harder than it needed to be. It's not NECESSARY to threat so hard if your next taunt is going to leap-frog you over the top anyway.
Also you're right what does an OT need threat for, it's not like anything unexpected ever happens... and besides I've never once seen a tank taunt something only to have it return to what it was attacking before a few seconds later.
You should be at full mana at this point and able to threat balls to the walls right after you taunt and if you can't generate that threat, then there are changes that need to be made. BTW, you have two taunts as a paladin for situations just like this.
edit: damnit this is what I get for waiting 10 minutes to post without refreshing. btw, my 2nd alt IS a pally tank... so perhaps I do know better than other pally tanks. just sayin'...
Post by
karlusdavius
@ karlusdavius - Pally taunts are based off of spell hit, so it is not feasible for a pally to be hit capped for it. There is a glyph to help, but I have yet to see a pally tank with it. Unlike Warriors many pally tanks aren't hit capped b/c it's a fair bit down the list for threat, so most do not gem or enchant for it.
Not sure if you knew this, all taunts are spell's.
Hit we gain from gear goes more towards spell hit than psysical.
So being melee hit capped will end you up at about 10% - 11% spell hit.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
http://www.wowhead.com/?profile=17910855
check on there. its around 2% up
Post by
ande9249
Slowside, its not too much to have healers change to help a tank out, it
IS
slightly harder to justify that each tank of that class will need the same help. To prove that the mechanics require a inefficient method of healing of the specific healer will require something a little more ....common or obvious. (reality check that we are talking about the interaction of one out of 5 healers against one out of 4 OT)
This compared to rage starving 1/2 of all tanks while they were sitting under a shield, something that happened very clearly, everyone could test it for themselves , and quite frankly was a big enough of a deal that Blizz changed it so it would work differently.
the elimination of one source of mana regen for the OT Pally....awfully specific for blizz to really get into changing things.
I agree that this game should require skill and recognition that different tanks like to have different things, but Slowside, before you start giving out disparing comments on the stubborness of disc priests, remember that we spent a total of
14 TP's
in
our
tree
that
go DEAD if we dont use PW:S. Not to mention that not using PW:S therefore loses US a haste proc, mana return possibility, and a Raid damage reduction. Sure we can get all of those by casting it elsewhere, but if talking about the 5 man dungeons....it really is tying our spec out of usefullness
Post by
Squishalot
Did a post get deleted?
@ Karlus - It's not a non-issue anymore, it's just less of an issue. A priest complained that their paladin said it was a threat issue, and we demonstrated now that there is no threat issue. There's still a mana issue.
Sure we can get all of those by casting it elsewhere, but if talking about the 5 man dungeons....it really is tying our spec out of usefullness
We're already clear - the only time where there may be a mana issue is if a tank is an OT and not taking significant amounts of damage, or at earlier levels before mana recovery abilities come into play.
I would say that the tank in this case is making their life harder than it needed to be. It's not NECESSARY to threat so hard if your next taunt is going to leap-frog you over the top anyway.
Well, look at it this way. A paladin loses about 15-20% of his DPS by leaving Consecration out of his rotation. Without it, there's no way that he can compete with Rogues and Mages and so on at the current level of gearing. So taking threat after the MT bites the dust will require a taunt to match threat and then to get ahead.
Consider what happens when the MT dies. Unless the OT taunts before the MT dies and it's a seamless transition, the boss will probably have a chance to strike out threat 2 target before being taunted, which will inevitably be a one-shot. Following on from that, the OT will taunt, at which point, he has 3 seconds to get a threat boost 10% above the next highest threat person.
(warning, paladin maths, skip ahead if you want)
He starts off with a 3k * 2.574 = 7722 extra threat due to the damage caused by the taunt. In that 3 seconds, he can do a Shield of Righteousness (capped at 3280 damage or 8442 threat), 3 ticks of Consecration (guesstimate 1500 damage or 3861 threat), a Hammer of the Righteous (guesstimate 3k damage or 7722 threat) and 2 melee swings and 4 seal procs (being about 2400 physical and 1680 holy, or 7756 threat), or a total of 35,503 threat. If you crit with everything, you can boost it to 70k.
(end warning)
In how many fights will an extra 70k threat be enough to overtake your top DPS? That's what, 2-3 minutes of threat? So after the three seconds of taunt, the boss goes off and wipes DPS #1 after that. So you've lost your MT and your two top DPS, and the raid wipes soon after. If your OT is #2 in the first place (which can't be done without maintaining near to a full rotation, in this day and age of exceedingly high DPSers) then the boss would never aggro on the DPS at all.
It's all a moot point if you assume that your guild is good enough to cream through objectives with no problems, and your MT never dies until enrage timers get hit and the raid gets one-shotted. But it seems that a lot of people have forgotten what progression is - things don't always go to plan in game, the MT will die occasionally. If everyone was end-game raiding with nothing 'unexpected' happening, then every paladin and priest would be intelligent, and it wouldn't be an issue. But life's not that simple.
Post by
karlusdavius
He starts off with a 3k * 2.574 = 7722 extra threat due to the damage caused by the taunt. In that 3 seconds, he can do a Shield of Righteousness (capped at 3280 damage or 8442 threat), 3 ticks of Consecration (guesstimate 1500 damage or 3861 threat), a Hammer of the Righteous (guesstimate 3k damage or 7722 threat) and 2 melee swings and 4 seal procs (being about 2400 physical and 1680 holy, or 7756 threat), or a total of 35,503 threat. If you crit with everything, you can boost it to 70k.
70k with righteous Fury up? i feel that math is a little off.
Post by
OscarDivine
So yeah. Here's how taunts work... read
Stampy's comment
.
Now... If you're sitting there tanking the boss until you get X stacks of the bad stuff, the other tank taunts it off of you, then you go away and pee...
You come back JUST in time to taunt after the other tank gets X stacks of the bad stuff... The tank is at one kajillion threat (or somewhere OVER 9000!)
Then you taunt. You now have one kajillion threat.
WOW all that mana you burned on him to keep your threat at #2 did you practically nothing. except some really l33t epeening damage, which wouldn't have been enough to down the boss in most events.
Am I totally wrong here?
Post by
karlusdavius
Right, but taunts can miss. Usually with 8% hit however, they don't miss. However, we have TWO taunts. so its gravy.
Edit: i read this fromt he start again. Pretty sure your not supposed to use Conscerate on Suarfang.
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