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To gearing pallies: What is best *really*? (On crit vs Int)
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Post by
svirve
There's no way you can convince me it's summer when it's -20 C (which feels like -50 when you're on a four story building without walls and a slight breeze passes you by) outside and my workmate came to work with 9 layers of clothing yesterday.
N-O W-A-Y.
Swap? Though I don't think I like the idea of your job, working without walls :P
Swap for?
I'm in construction hence the no walls ;p
Post by
Squishalot
Our 'summer'. Random weather ranging from a max 22C to 45C, conditions varying between bright blue skies to overcast, rainy and foggy.
It's been a strange year of weather.
And yes, I gathered you were in construction - I still wouldn't like it though, give me an inside job working with spreads and numbers any day ;p
Post by
svirve
Our 'summer'. Random weather ranging from a max 22C to 45C, conditions varying between bright blue skies to overcast, rainy and foggy.
It's been a strange year of weather.
And yes, I gathered you were in construction - I still wouldn't like it though, give me an inside job working with spreads and numbers any day ;p
Lol that sounds like what they have in kintergarten over here!
Seriously though, that's kinda like what we have here during the summer, add insane winds that'll lift you off the ground and we're there ;p
I'd love a work like that as well, if it could only include calculators that weight like 20kg and for each equation i have to do 2 hours of physical work.
If you didn't guess so, i have a problem sitting still and i hate working indoors. A physically demanding work is sooooooo much more satisfying, plus it's, not at all easy but, easier when you're tired.
Post by
hatman555
what the helll is this? some tea club social? INT OR CRIT!
lol jk, its way too late and I tried to promise myself I wouldn't post on forums while drunk, but there goes that idea.
-5GMT representing!
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Nazeka
Spell Penetration is easily the best healing stat, all the retadins are stacking their holy resist gear so we need to be capable of getting through that without losing 1/2 our heals to their resistances!
Also, this thread is win; keep up the fail, OP.
Post by
biogoo
He is back, he is dangerous, and now more than ever!
Post by
Nazeka
OP, I thank thee...
For keeping the failtrain at maximum speed, I can now go to school today proud that no matter what I see, I will never encounter someone as completely and totally brain-dead such as yourself. Thank you for continuing in your endeavor of being a shining beacon for humanity and FAILING miserably. Grats to ya.
Oh and I love how you essentially said that X=X, therefore X is greater than X.
Post by
Squishalot
He is back, he is dangerous, and now more than ever!
Indeed!
Come on, buddy, get the numbers down! All I see is more spaghetti English :)
Post by
Nazeka
Now forgive me good sir, but I am at a loss with your profound mathematical equations and I was wondering if you would be so kind as to clear up some details when you get a moment. If so, I'll supply a follow up post with my questions. If not, I'll go back to my statistics homework.
Post by
Squishalot
He is back, he is dangerous, and now more than ever!
Indeed!
Come on, buddy, get the numbers down! All I see is more spaghetti English :)
I have gave you the math its up to you to solve it, if you can't solve it there is no reason for you staying on this thread.
L-O-L... A = B: the answer to the universe! Now go solve it xD
I'd love to leave you and go back to my stats homework like Nazeka, but you'll have to forgive me - I've already finished my actuarial degrees, so I don't have any more high level uni maths that needs doing. So I guess I'll keep waiting for you to prove your point.
Post by
Squishalot
Ok, ok, I should stop being so cruel.
pulle, the reason your 'math' is so obviously wrong is because Int and Crit have two completely different impacts on mana regeneration. In fact, the formula to calculate mana regeneration from Int should be about 3 times longer than that to calculate mana regen from Crit, because there are more ways to recover mana.
That you've used an identical formula and tried to bluff us about needing to fill numbers in the gaps only goes to smother even more egg on your face, and provides more evidence that you have no idea what you're on about. So give up while you've got any face left to save.
Alternatively, if you're a troll, forget I said any of that, and please keep going - we needed more entertainment on the Paladin forums!
Post by
pezz
I vaguely remember someone arguing just like pulle some months ago. Something about simple math and we're a blockheads for not seeing it. I wish I could remember the context.
Sinespe might remember his name, or pelf, or one of the other druid or priest regulars. I forget it but he was in all the class forums talking about how holy is better DPS than shadow and that no one raid heals like paladins.
Also, I live in New Orleans. Everyone else's summer sucks compared to mine, assuming we don't get too many hurricanes.
Post by
Squishalot
Actually, while I was online earlier tonight, it struck me that there was someone who tried to prove something about Consecratadins... that stacking SP was a viable route for a Ret pally because of its bonus to Cons, Exo, J/Sov...?
Actually, all this proves is that there are plenty of people out there with a poor command of maths :P At least zoomie had a reasonable argument to back him up. The rest don't have an excuse.
Post by
pezz
Actually, all this proves is that there are plenty of people out there with a poor command of maths :P At least zoomie had a reasonable argument to back him up. The rest don't have an excuse.
Who needs math when you have a second account faking like someone agrees with you?
Post by
slasher0161
And if you wanna see im correct, just so simple math everybody learns in school.
Uh huh. So if this math is so simple, why can't you post it, like we've asked over and over again?
Of course, if your math is as good as your English...
*Assorted trash*
Now what he was really trying to say is that
2 = 1
so pulle your insane maths abilities should be able to find the flaws in that proof should they not... off you go, not a moment to waste or we shall divide your IQ by 0 (In your case is possible)
Post by
Rouen
For Crit:
XXXX(MP)-CCC(MP) = AAAA (MP)
ZZZZ(MP)-VV%(MP) From ZZZZ = DDDD (MP)
LLLL-YY% from LLLL = BBB (MP)
For Intellect:
XXXX(MP)-CCC(MP) = AAAA (MP)
ZZZZ(MP)-VV%(MP) From ZZZZ = DDDD (MP)
LLLL-YY% from LLLL = BBB (MP) (Less chance to kick in thus making Crit better.)
There you got the maths now figure it out by yourself.
You forgot the first rule of variables: Define them. For someone who rants about simple math, you sure fail at it. Here's why.
I did some math about three weeks ago showing the difference between Solace of the Fallen and Tears of the Vanquished for folks to reference. I'm going to borrow some of that math.
Facts
Critical Strike Rating does not scale with buffs and adds to over heals.
Intellect does scale with buffs and does not add to over heals.
Critical Strike Rating does not improve Divine Plea or Replenishment.
Intellect does improve Divine Plea and Replenishment.
Intellect provides extra mana, spellpower, and spell critical rating.
Critical Strike Rating just improves.... critical strike rating.
Intellect improves Divine Plea via increasing the mana pool since Divine Plea works off of a percentage of total mana. Intellect improves the effect of Replenishment because it works of a percentage of total mana.
Intellect Test Paladin in ToC 25 gear
Critical Strike Test Failadin in ToC 25 gear
A human holy paladin's base mana pool is 4394 according to wowwiki, but wowhead reports it at 5584. The 4394 is the accurate number, so any spell cost calculations will use that number. Also, the wowhead tool does not take into account the 5% holy crit from talents, so add 5% for all calculations. I'm also fairly certain the exact total mana pool and the crit % itself are not accurate, but for simplicity's sake, we will use them. With that said...
Holy Light Cost is 29% @ LV 80: 1274
Flash of Light Cost is 7% @ LV 80: 308 rounded
Holy Shock Cost is 18% @ LV 80: 791 rounded
Note: Libram of Renewal does not affect the base cost calculations for Illumination procs. Also, I will not break down the math for spellpower due to the difference in enchants, but I'll simply post the extra spellpower gained from the intellect between the two and after buffs.
2nd Note: The crit % shown is the HOLY crit, which is 5% higher due to talents. During the tests, you'll notice that Holy Light and Holy Shock have 6% extra crit factored in, this is due to the
Sanctified Light
talent.
Intellect Paladin base figures
Mana: 31,534 total, unbuffed
Crit: 33.31% unbuffed
Intellect: 1828 unbuffed
Critical Failadin base figures
Mana: 22,489 total, unbuffed
Crit: 42.63%, unbuffed
Intellect: 1225, unbuffed
You still with me pulle? I didn't think so.
Conditions and Assumptions
The encounter lasts 8 minutes (480 seconds), Replenishment has 100% uptime, Divine Plea is popped every minute (8 times). The first test will be without Blessing of Kings, Arcane Intellect, and Mark of the Wild. The second test will include the previously mentioned raid buffs. No MP5 will be calculated. Regen from Illumination procs will be calculated as Average Casts per encounter will be 25% Holy Light, 50% Flash of Light, 25% Holy Shock with 40 casts occurring every minute. This makes 160 Flashes of Light, 80 Holy Lights and 80 Holy Shocks. This are just example numbers and will change greatly depending on the encounter and how over geared the group is. I usually cast
at least
this many mana spells per minute in current content. This rounds down to 10 Holy Lights, 20 Flash of Lights, and 10 Holy Shocks per minute. Multiply this by 8 for total casts. The crit % per test character will be tested against the number of casts as...
Example: Crit % x Casts = Number of crit spells. The number will be rounded depending on the decimal. If it is between .01 and 50, it will be rounded down. Between 50+ and 99.99 it will be rounded up. This is a very generous giving since there is no such thing as 1 and a half crits.
Crap, I already lost pulle.
Test One: Intellect Paladin
Divine Plea: 31,534 x 0.25 x 8 = 63,068
Replenishment: 31,534 x 0.002 x 480 = 30,272.64
Flash of Light Ilumination: 160 x 0.3331 = 53 crits. 308 x 53 = 16,324 x 0.3 = 4,897.2 mana returned.
Holy Light Illumination: 80 x 0.3931 = 31 crits. 1,274 x 31 = 39,618 x 0.3 = 11,885.4 mana returned.
Holy Shock Illumination: 80 x 0.3931 = 31 crits. 791 x 31 = 24,521 x 0.3 = 7,356.3 mana returned.
63,068 + 30,272.64 + 4,897.2 + 11,885.4 + 7,356.3 = 117,479.54 total mana returned.
Test One: Critical Failadin
Divine Plea: 22,489 x 0.25 x 8 = 44,978
Replenishment: 22,489 x 0.002 x 480 = 21,589.44
Flash of Light Ilumination: 160 x 0.4263 = 68 crits. So 308 x 68 = 20,944 x 0.3 = 6,283.2 mana regained.
Holy Light Illumination: 80 x 0.4863 = 39 crits. So 1,274 x 39 = 49,686 x 0.3 = 14,905.8 mana regained.
Holy Shock Illumination: 80 x 0.4863 = 39 crits. So 791 x 39 = 30,849 x 0.3 = 9,254.7 mana regained.
44,978 + 21,589.44 + 6,283.2 + 14,905.8 + 9,254.7 = 97,011.14 total mana returned.
117,479.54 - 97,011.14 = 20,468.4 is how much more mana the Intellect stacking Paladin regained in an 8 minute encounter.
Aww, pulle hasn't left the starting line. If this was Special Olympics, you would have won!
Test Two in the next post.
Post by
Rouen
The next test will include Blessing of Kings, Arcane Intellect, and Mark of the Wild. Since Intellect increases critical rate by a set amount, we'll need to figure that out first.
Arcane Intellect provides 60 intellect and Mark provides 37, for a total of 97. We'll add that to both paladin's total intellect and then apply the kings buff. Once applied, we'll deduce how much intellect as added and thus how much extra crit was also added.
Intellect Paladin: 1828 + 97 = 1925 x 1.1 = 2117 intellect
Critical Failadin: 1225 + 97 = 1322 x 1.1 = 1454 intellect
2117 - 1828 = 289 intellect improvement
1454 - 1225 = 229 intellect improvement
289 Intellect adds 4335 to the Intellect Paladin's mana pool, increasing it to 35,869.
229 Intellect adds 3435 to the Critical Failadin's mana pool, increasing it to 25,984.
According to wowwiki (
source
), it takes 166.667 points of intellect to get 1% of spell crit.
289 / 166.667 = 1.73% rounded, increasing the Intellect Paladin's crit to 35.04%
229 / 166.667 = 1.37% rounded, increasing the Critical Failadin's crit to 44% even.
Let's see just how well your 8.96% "superior" critical compares to our 9885 extra mana.
Test Two: Intellect Paladin
Divine Plea: 35,869 x 0.25 x 8 = 71,738
Replenishment: 35,869 x 0.002 x 480 = 34,434.24
Flash of Light Illumination: 180 x 0.3504 = 63 crits. 308 x 63 = 19,404 x 0.3 = 5,821.2 mana regained.
Holy Light Illumination: 80 x 0.4104 = 33 crits. 1,274 x 33 = 42,042 x 0.3 = 12,612.6 mana regained.
Holy Shock Illumination: 80 x 0.4104 = 33 crits. 791 x 33 = 26,103 x 0.3 = 7,830.9 mana regained.
71,738 + 34,434.24 + 5,821.2 + 12,612.6 + 7,830.9 = 132,436.94 total mana regained.
Test Two: Critical Failadin
Divine Plea: 25,984 x 0.25 x 8 = 51,968
Replenishment: 25,984 x 0.002 x 480 = 24,944.64
Flash of Light Illumination: 180 x 0.44 = 79 crits. 308 x 79 = 24,332 x 0.3 = 7,299.6 mana regained.
Holy Light Illumination: 80 x 0.5 = 40 crits. 1,274 x 40 = 50,960 x 0.3 = 15,288 mana regained.
Holy Shock Illumination: 80 x 0.5 = 40 crits. 791 x 40 = 31,640 x 0.3 = 9,492 mana regained.
51,968 + 24,944.64 + 7,299.6 + 15,288 + 9,492 = 108,992.24 total mana regained.
132,436.94 - 108,992.24 = 23,444.7 is how much more mana the Intellect stacked paladin regained.
Let's recap.
Test One: Intellect Paladin regenerated 20,468.4 more than Failadin.
Test Two (Buffed): Intellect Paladin regenerated 23,444.7 more than Failadin.
End Wall of Numbers.
I used to use the
51/0/20
spec which gives you an extra 8% crit. If I stacked critical strike rating instead of intellect, I would have 8.96% extra crit, so this short story is relevant to this post.
After I dropped the 8% crit from talents and went to the 51/20/0 spec, I gained a number of things.
1. My average overhealing dropped 8-10%.
2. I used less mana during raids because of the 11% larger heals thanks to the new talents in the protection tree.
3. My Sacred Shield lasts for twice as long and is 20% stronger. Normally I would have to cast it 16 times (for the full 8 minutes, every 30 seconds), which means it would cost me 527 mana x 16 = 8,432 mana. Since I'll be casting it every 60 seconds thanks to the new talents, it only costs me 4,216 mana.
4. I gain a party wide damage mitigation tool which prevents 200% of my health in damage between 5 people. Since I have about 23k health raid buffed, it prevents 46,000 damage assuming it all lands in the time Divine Sacrifice is up.
I'm sorry, but the troll just got rocked. Your toon is what it is, a Critical Failadin.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Someone was just schooled.
Post by
Rouen
Can I get a shout out from Hatman? That smackdown was in your honor!
Thanks troll for giving me something to do during my lull period at work.
Arithmetic Critically strikes pulle's face for over 9000!
Edit: Should I take those posts, clean them up and repost as a new thread and request a sticky?
Post by
svirve
I'd support a "crit vs int, here's why" sticky.
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