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When do you want MORE melee players in raid?
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Post by
skribs
On others however, melee have the advantage, or have an easier job, thus allowing them to do more DPS to the boss, for example XT, where we just keep on DPSing the boss as hard as we can when the adds spawn.
This is an example of it being beneficial to
be
a melee in a raid, not to
bring
a melee to a raid. If you have half casters and half melee and melee stays on boss, then in an all caster group you could simply have half the group hit the adds and half the group stay on the boss for the same effect. Or better, you could have more switch to ensure the adds dont get close enough. While melee may do higher DPS due to lack of target-switching, ranged could have the same effect on the meters if there are enough that not all are required to switch.
I'm not asking for "what fights would I do better on as a melee." I'm asking "what fights would it be useful to sell myself as melee DPS to the person setting up the groups?" It's a similar question, but not quite the same. "I do higher damage on fights if I stay on boss but dont attack adds" is usually less popular than "if adds need to go down I can switch real fast."
Post by
Ralin
But you're asking those questions to help you decide which DPS class to go in Cataclysm. It doesn't matter what the preferred DPS type is right now, roll what you like.
You'll always have fights where melee is preferred, and others where ranged is preferred. If Blizzard realizes raids start to bring 90% ranged DPS because of a certain boss' ability, they'll patch the encounter up.
Post by
219211
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
1) Melee dps can do 100% dps to boss and add some aoe damage to adds next to it.
Well, any class with dots can do a similar effect by tab-dotting instead of using the "spammable" (which is usually less damage-per-cast) on a target. It's not 100% but it's still going to be good. It honestly doesn't matter too much, as the mobs are going to need to take X damage to die either way, so it doesn't matter if you switch to AoE to deal damage or if you don't. It's the example with my DK - even though a warrior could out-do me on single target (with an AoE in his rotation already) I out-did him on AoE because I switched. More damage done to the adds drops them faster, allowing us to get back on the boss quicker to make up for DPS lost on the boss by not using a single-target rotation. So this only really matters on pulls of 2-3 (on 4 mobs you usually will have the same DPS on AoE abilities as you will on a cleave rotation, although it's really dependent on class) - which you will rarely see. Most pulls in raids are either 1 mob or 4+, and in heroics it doesn't usually matter too much. Bosses such as faction champs or emalon must be single-targetted anyway, and bosses such as onyxia are going to primarily be pure AoE on the adds. Often melee aren't even helping with the adds as ranged burn them down (think XT or grobbulus).
Overall, I'd say a cleave effect has a VERY limitted effect on damage-done, and is going to be very specific to the fight as it requires a specific number of mobs in melee range who are not resistant to AoE. In Naxx this may help on Noth, in OS it will help on half the trash pulls, in Ulduar it will primarily help on Kolo (very well on Kolo) or cat lady, and in ToC it will help slightly on kobolds or on twins IF they're tanked together or Anub once he burrows. Over 30 bosses in those raids, and maybe 4 boss fights where cleave has
some
effect. On other bosses its either all single target effects or it's pure AoE effects.
As a result, I guess you could say bosses with adds or multiple hit-boxes that number in the 2-3 range benefit melee
with cleaves
. However, as has been stated, it only really benefits 2 melee classes (others can switch to AoE, but that's not the same) and it also benefits a few ranged classes as well. So it's not a big factor, it's not a melee-specific effect, and therefore it is not a reason to bring melee over ranged.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
Out the top of my head.
OS big time
Like has been said, Gormok
Any fight that requires spreading out(worms)
The fights that favor me as a DPS warrior are also f.ex. Kolo, Ignis, Thorim(talking about phase 2), Mimiron on phase 2, Grobulus.
Actualy any fight that requires movement from ranged but doesn't require the melee to stop DPS'ing the bos.
Take OS 0 drakes. A melee has 100% damage uptime, a ranged has to move his ass around.
I do think any fight can be almost done without any melee though.
Post by
skribs
Any fight that requires spreading out(worms)
Actually this favors bringing ranged, as melee stack faster. If worms put poison on melee, a LOT of people get it. If it goes on spread ranged, only 1 gets it.
The fights that favor me as a DPS warrior are also f.ex. Kolo, Ignis, Thorim(talking about phase 2), Mimiron on phase 2, Grobulus.
Some of this may be due to class-specific effects. E.g. a rogue has no big advantage on kolo. Others (e.g. mimi) are melee-specific. Grobulus usually favors ranged, as they switch to adds (as far as what you want in raid, not who does most DPS).
Actualy any fight that requires movement from ranged but doesn't require the melee to stop DPS'ing the bos.
A lot of fights you linked actually require movement on melee, they're just usually forgiven for not. ToGC is hard with melee stacked because if melee gets the poison/bile it's near impossible to heal. Grobulus requires melee to move if they're diseased. You seem to play as if you simply let the healer forgive you and get max DPS unless you'll get 1-shot by an AoE. That may be big numbers, but its not a good DPSer.
Post by
leonheart87
The only reason to bring melee is balance.
Who wants a raid with 5 healers 2 tanks and 19 casters? Would take forever to gear up effectively.
Especially with Murphy's Law making nine tenths of the loot being for the one class/spec that isn't there.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
worms: ranged HAS to spread out and respread themself every burry because healers and ranged wil have to move over to the mob.
Kolo: I was talking about the fact that if they get focussed by his eyes you can just strafe and coninue DOS
Grob: adds can be tanked by the one tanking Grob these days or closeby. ranged has to reposition because of the moving, we both lose DPS because of the debuff so that one isn't even taken into account
Last one: Every aoe that can be healed trough, should be healed trough. Yes I have a mage and a holy priest I raid with.
Post by
Monjaru
To Monjaru
Please stop trolling. I like a good troll, but you are failing unfortunately. I'm not sure how participating and presenting valid arguments in this debate makes me a troll. Perhaps you should take a few minutes to refresh yourself on the definition of a troll.
For example, take 2 statements of mine.
1) Melee dps can do 100% dps to boss and add some aoe damage to adds next to it.
2) Melee dps will loose single target dps if doing 100% aoe damage.
There is no contradiction in those 2 statements. Please read them again and try to understand what I am saying. I'd appreciate if you could point to the spot in any of my posts where I said those two statements were contradictory. Don't take too long trying to find it though, I'd prefer you save your energy on coming up with an actual counter-argument.
What I
did
say was contradictory were these two statements of yours:
How many ranged dps can do 100% damage to a target and at the same time do significant amount of damage to a nearby target?
I did not say that melees can AOE without any dps decrease.
In the first, you claim that melee dps can pull 100% of their normal dps rotation
and
still pull significant damage to a secondary foe. In the second, you completely revoke your claim and try to convince me I was just imagining what you said in your first post. That, my friend, is contradiction.
If you noticed, I was NEVER talking about cleaves. I was talking about aoe damage. Even though exploding adds on Freya could be theoretically avoided, practically that doesn't always work. Oh no? Well, that's unfortunate, because as it turns out, the post that you were responding to which I in turn responded, we
were
talking about cleaves, and not standard aoe damage linked to a specific fight. I apologize if you didn't understand that's what we were talking about, but you can't hardly blame me for your ignorance of the subject at hand.
Post by
skribs
worms: ranged HAS to spread out and respread themself every burry because healers and ranged wil have to move over to the mob.
Only reason melee doesn't spread out is because they can't. The more melee in group, the harder it is to heal, because the melee ALL get the debuff if it is cast on them. Ranged
could
do the same thing, and it would be just as hard. Therefore, if I were setting up a group for worms (although they're same fight as gormak which is melee based) I would want ranged, as ranged
can
spread out, therefore making my job easier. Melee may do higher DPS as they don't have to worry about spreading out - but it will be a much greater cost to the healers if they get AoEd than it will be to take a few extra secondson worms.
Kolo: I was talking about the fact that if they get focussed by his eyes you can just strafe and coninue DOS
Ah, good point.
Grob: adds can be tanked by the one tanking Grob these days or closeby. ranged has to reposition because of the moving, we both lose DPS because of the debuff so that one isn't even taken into account
If ranged gets debuff, the run to wall, run back to middle, continue to turret. If melee get debuff they run to wall, then have to run back to boss - which is usually a bit farther. Adds have an AoE they do, which is why you don't want melee on them - you want ranged to attack them. It makes the healer's life easier.
Last one: Every aoe that can be healed trough, should be healed trough. Yes I have a mage and a holy priest I raid with.
You would be one of those I let die as a healer. Just because you don't get 1-shot by an effect you shouldn't be standing in doesn't mean you should count on your healers to heal you up. Yes, heals are basically spamming raid anyway, and yes healers dont usually have mana problems. However, we still have to triage, and if multiple people are taking massive damage I'm going to prioritize healers, tanks, and DPS who don't stand in fires first.
Only time we heal through AoEs like that is on "zerg" fights where you completely outgear the content so it doesn't matter, or if the AoE isn't very big but has an effect which makes it so ranged don't go to melee (e.g. Gormak does an AoE that interrupts). Yeah, if the healers are in full T9 and you're running Naxx, we can easily forgive some mistakes. But if your healers are in full T9 and you're doing ICC, I'd recommend you don't give the healers extra work.
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
Nice topic skribs, I wondered about the very same thing ;) I like your list you posted way back in this topic. Nice listing of the situations that will favor melee over ranged. Especially the "moving out of fire" argument is quite strong since most fights have some kind of void zone which skilled melee can usually move out of without stopping to attack while casters have to stop casting.
However, there is one thing I do not agree with:
Feral druids have to switch spells, rogues have to switch, enh shamans really only have 1 splash ability which won't total to much of their DPS, and DKs are going to have to switch to do any real splash damage. So I dont know where you're getting this fact from.
People here generally seem to misunderstand Shaman AoE. CL is nice but it is not nearly our main dps spell. It can be used easily by both enhancement and elemental Shamans in their normal rotation but it alone is not even remotely close to what other classes can do in AoE.
The two major contributions to Shaman AoE are actually
Magma Totem
and (since 3.3)
Fire Nova
. If you are interested in the details there is a nice post on
ElitistJerks
about it, they are still figuring out the perfect position of MT and FN for the enhancement Shaman single target attack priority list but both are sure to be used a lot.
Both are a part of any enhancement Shamans normal single target dps rotation. When facing multiple targets they move up in the priority list a few spots (e.g. usually if Earth Shock and Fire Nova are both off cooldown a Shaman would prioritize ES over FN, when fighting 3+ mobs FN would get the priority over ES) but generally his single target damage will hardly suffer at all while putting out serious AoE damage at the same time.
Elemental Shamans however have huge problems with that. FN is not part of their normal rotation and in order to keep Magma Totem active (in an organized raid an elemental Shaman will not have to keep Totem of Wrath active since the Warlock spellpower buff is
much
stronger, thus freeing up the fire totem for personal dps) they actually have to stay in melee range (or move there every 20 seconds to refresh it), completely negating the range advantage.
All melee except for feral Druids and Rogues get "free" AoE. Elemental Shamans get some minor "free" AoE with CL but they miss out on the major AoE (MT, FN).
I'm of the opinion that too much of either type of DPS is a bad thing. Lady Deathwhisper is a great example of why this is the case.
As far as I know it's not really a matter of ranged vs melee but more physical vs magical dps.
E.g. an enhancement Shaman, despite being a melee dps class, will be very weak on the "melee" adds since over half of his damage is fire/nature based. A Hunter on the other hand, despite being ranged, will be very strong on the "melee" adds because he can deal serious physical damage, right?
(I have to admit I have no clue about Hunters and I just assume that they are dealing mostly physical damage, correct me please if I'm wrong there).
Post by
146010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skribs
Good point on the enh shamans megavolt. On those we actually weren't talking so much AoE damage as we were splash damage...for example WW is used on single targets but does more damage on AoE. That's why I was including CL into the list, because (unless they've changed it) it's powerful within a single target rotation, but it does added splash damage if there's 2-3 targets up.
All melee except for feral Druids and Rogues get "free" AoE. Elemental Shamans get some minor "free" AoE with CL but they miss out on the major AoE (MT, FN).
As said before, splash damage is fairly evenly spread between melee and ranged. Even then, there are very few fights where splash damage is preferred to switching to pure AoE, as noted in the anecdote about my DK switching to AoE DPS and being able to out-perform the warrior. In a boss fight with adds, you simply total up the boss's health and the health of all adds you need to kill and that is the amount of total health of the encounter you need to damage. So even if you're not doing 100% on the boss, the person with higher damage did the most to the health pool of the encounter. What AoE damage you are capable of is largely dependent on class - a DK may have more AoE than an ele shaman, but a mage will have more AoE than a warrior (past cleave limits, of course).
In general, the two most common mistakes in answering my question are as follows:
People list why their particular melee class is valuable to a raid, not why melee in general is. A ret pally isn't good on interrupts, a rogue lacks cleave, and enh shamans can be spell reflected.
People list fights where its beneficial to
be
a melee in a raid, not where it's beneficial to
bring
a melee in a raid. I don't care if on a fight where ranged has to switch to adds the melee does higher DPS by not switching - I care that the ranged can switch to adds much better than melee can.
Post by
Ippon
As said before, splash damage is fairly evenly spread between melee and ranged.No, it's not. How many times do we have to cover the same damn topic?
Every melee except Rogues and Ferals have free/low cost effective cleave. Virtually no ranged do.
In general, the two most common mistakes in answering my question are as follows:
People list why their particular melee class is valuable to a raid, not why melee in general is. A ret pally isn't good on interrupts, a rogue lacks cleave, and enh shamans can be spell reflected.
People list fights where its beneficial to
be
a melee in a raid, not where it's beneficial to
bring
a melee in a raid. I don't care if on a fight where ranged has to switch to adds the melee does higher DPS by not switching - I care that the ranged can switch to adds much better than melee can.
It's encounter specific, and in general it doesn't even matter. Bring the player not the class -- but overall, melee are stronger DPSers currently. Just browse WoL for 20 seconds and that becomes patently obvious.
Post by
skribs
No, it's not. How many times do we have to cover the same damn topic?
Every melee except Rogues and Ferals have free/low cost effective cleave. Virtually no ranged do.
We have to cover this topic until people understand. Ele shamans, hunters, and fire magi all have splash damage, far from "virtually no ranged". Warriors, retadins, blood DKs, and enh shamans have splash damage. This is only in single-target rotations. So yeah, maybe slightly in favor of melee, not all in favor of melee.
It's encounter specific, and in general it doesn't even matter. Bring the player not the class -- but overall, melee are stronger DPSers currently. Just browse WoL for 20 seconds and that becomes patently obvious.
I know it's encounter specific, that was the point of this post. The question was (reworded slightly) what general factors in an encounter make it better to bring more melee to the group? Melee classes have the advantage of all abilities being instant cast, therefore useful while moving IF they can maintain 100% time-on-target, and the disadvantage of being in melee range which is a problem on target-switching (if targets are spread) or on WW type effects.
Splash damage is not unique to melee and is almost always negligable in boss fights (see the total encounter health arguement I made a few posts up) - therefore it is a non-factor in a melee vs. ranged arguement. It is a factor in specific classes on fights with a specific number of adds.
Post by
Ippon
We have to cover this topic until people understand. Ele shamans, hunters, and fire magi all have splash damage, far from "virtually no ranged". Warriors, retadins, blood DKs, and enh shamans have splash damage. This is only in single-target rotations. So yeah, maybe slightly in favor of melee, not all in favor of melee.Ele Shamans have very, very minor splash, and Ele just plain sucks in general so I'm not going to waste much time talking about it. Hunters have *one* AE skill that's a very minor part of their damage (and isn't in single target for that matter). Fire mages shouldn't be in your raid unless it's a pure AE fight like H Anub.
Warriors, Ret. Paladins, DKs (who should all be UH) and Enh. Shamans have perma-splash. Warriors and Rets have optional low-cost increased splash. Unholy DKs have optional low-cost amazing splash.
Ranged have NONE OF THAT. The very nature of casters means they can only do 1 thing at a time, generally speaking. Either they are casting AE, or they are nuking. The only real exception would be Aff locks.
(see the total encounter health arguement I made a few posts up) - therefore it is a non-factor in a melee vs. ranged arguement. It is a factor in specific classes on fights with a specific number of adds.The total health argument? The one that would lead you to look at actual parses, where melee almost always dominate? That one?
(Especially lately since rogues are borderline broken)
Post by
skribs
Warriors only have 1 splash ability (whirlwind). So why is a hunter's one splash ability (multi-shot) less than that?
Bring the player not the class
Fire mages shouldn't be in your raid unless it's a pure AE fight like H Anub.
Explain.
The total health arguement is that the best rotation for a fight is the one which nets most DPS at any portion of the fight, because it doesn't matter if you kill adds with splash while keeping damage on the boss or if you switch to an AoE rotation and slack on boss damage for a bit. The reason is you will need to do X damage to the boss plus Y damage per add, so the more DPS you do (which may mean switching to an AoE rotation and getting off the boss entirely) the faster you would kill the boss. Yeah, the people with splash may do more damage to the actual boss, but the people with AoE are having a greater effect. A perfect example is a DK switching from single-target to AoE rotation vs. a warrior who has no AoE rotation - it's all the same. While the warrior beat out the DK on single target (largely a gear issue as my DK was a full 3 tiers gear behind the warrior) the DK beat out the warrior on an AoE-heavy boss. The "cleave" didn't help him, and "splash" didn't help me as I replaced the majority of my rotation with AoE abilities. Similiarly, a warlock spamming RoF would have been a better choice than the warrior, despite the warrior's splash damage. Therefore, the limitted-target AoEs that fit into single target rotations are only helpful on bosses with only 1-2 adds that are in melee range. Most bosses have 1-2 adds out of cleave range, no adds, or AoE adds, so cleaves don't even matter.
The total health argument? The one that would lead you to look at actual parses, where melee almost always dominate? That one?
(Especially lately since rogues are borderline broken)
So you counter my arguement that cleaves don't matter with the arguement that rogues are broken (high) DPS, even though rogues are a non-cleave class that would have to switch from single-target to FoK spam?
Post by
Ippon
Bring the player not the class
Fire mages shouldn't be in your raid unless it's a pure AE fight like H Anub.
Explain.Good Mage player would be Arcane.
...Similiarly, a warlock spamming RoF would have been a better choice than the warrior, despite the warrior's splash damage. Therefore, the limitted-target AoEs that fit into single target rotations are only helpful on bosses with only 1-2 adds that are in melee range. Most bosses have 1-2 adds out of cleave range, no adds, or AoE adds, so cleaves don't even matter.Except that's completely untrue. Take a look at the last tier, for example.
Beasts: Single adds in cleave range.
Jaraxxus: 1-3 adds, some in cleave range, some not.
Champs: Absolutely, unequivocally dominated by Unholy DKs.
Twins: Two mobs in cleave range the ENTIRE FIGHT.
Anub: 4 Adds, all in cleave range. DK/Warr/Rogue/Feral dominated for us, haven't looked at a ton of other WoLs on this fight to be honest.
So you counter my arguement that cleaves don't matter with the arguement that rogues are broken (high) DPS, even though rogues are a non-cleave class that would have to switch from single-target to FoK spam?I'm saying it's hard to look at WoL objectively for ICC because rogues are so broken that we crush everyone on everything via 5-digit single target damage. However, if you did, you'd see that melee is disproportionately represented at the top.
Post by
Monjaru
Good Mage player would be Arcane. By your standards, sure. By the standards of non-elitists, no.
Except that's completely untrue. Take a look at the last tier, for example.
Beasts: Single adds in cleave range.
Jaraxxus: 1-3 adds, some in cleave range, some not.
Champs: Absolutely, unequivocally dominated by Unholy DKs.
Twins: Two mobs in cleave range the ENTIRE FIGHT.
Anub: 4 Adds, all in cleave range. DK/Warr/Rogue/Feral dominated
for us
, haven't looked at a ton of other WoLs on this fight to be honest. Good for you guys. But unfortunately for your argument, you =/= the entire WoW populace.
I'm saying it's hard to look at WoL objectively for ICC because rogues are so broken that we crush everyone on everything via 5-digit single target damage. However, if you did, you'd see that melee is disproportionately represented at the top. No, you'll see that rogues are disproportionately represented at the top. I believe I also saw a few hunters, a mage, and a shadow priest up there.
And not all of it is single target damage. If you'll notice the top dps for 10-man Lord Marrowgar; it's a rogue doing 25k dps. If you think that's legit single target, you've gotta be kidding yourself.
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