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A question about Religions
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Post by
ASHelmy
I apologize for suddenly jumping in the thread, but I want to say something: I would rather fry in hell for eternity than ending when I die. For me, a life without God existing is a bleak, depressing existence. And yet, I still question God's existence sometimes.
Mmm, you changed your avatar... I had thought you left the forums. From what I understand, hell is ultimate suffering right? It seems to be that non-existence lacks suffering. I would rather fall asleep than be pricked by needles, so if we just extended those two sides to their extremes... I don't know, logically speaking this doesn't make much sense to me.
Never left, still check out the forum every 3-4 days. I didn't want to join any debates because I, myself, am questioning my beliefs - I did not want to confuse myself even more. I still am questioning them, but now I am a bit more confident.
Honestly? it doesn't make any sense? Don't you want this life to mean something? Are you happy knowing that existence is cruel, cold, lonely and pointless? I would rather be tortured than not exist.
Post by
Adamsm
Honestly? it doesn't make any sense? Don't you want this life to mean something? Are you happy knowing that existence is cruel, cold, lonely and pointless? I would rather be tortured than not exist.But if you don't exist.... how would you know your missing anything? Though, I'm a believer in reincarnation here so that wouldn't exactly happen to me heh.... I'm hoping.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
We have free will to accept God, don't we? My point is that I don't think that you can lose salvation once you've gained it. That's not saying that we don't have free will.
But then I go back to my question. What if i reject God? Included in that is rejecting the salvation he's forcing on me. If I have a free will, I should be able to do that, no? Does God take away my free will to reject his salvation the second I accept him?
Just because we can't flap out wings and start flying doesn't change whether or not free will exists to take his own example, merely that one cannot do the impossible.
Flying a plane into a building is not impossible.
Post by
349158
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ASHelmy
Honestly? it doesn't make any sense? Don't you want this life to mean something? Are you happy knowing that existence is cruel, cold, lonely and pointless? I would rather be tortured than not exist.But if you don't exist.... how would you know your missing anything? Though, I'm a believer in reincarnation here so that wouldn't exactly happen to me heh.... I'm hoping.
I know now, don't I? That is torture enough. Knowing that you will end when you die is possibly the worst thing that could happen to a person. At least that's what I think.
Post by
Badguy
Free will=Satan
Post by
TheMediator
Honestly? it doesn't make any sense? Don't you want this life to mean something?
Are you happy knowing that existence is cruel, cold, lonely and pointless?
I would rather be tortured than not exist.
No, it doesn't make me happy in the slightest... neither does knowing that thousands of living beings are being killed every day, that many more are suffering... but I should turn my back on (my perceived) truth just because I want to feel better?
Flying a plane into a building is not impossible.
Indeed, but does flying a plane into a building sever your faith and dedication to your God?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Flying a plane into a building is not impossible.
Indeed, but does flying a plane into a building sever your faith and dedication to your God?
The person in my scenario rejects that faith, rejects God.
Post by
Queggy
We have free will to accept God, don't we? My point is that I don't think that you can lose salvation once you've gained it. That's not saying that we don't have free will.
But then I go back to my question. What if i reject God? Included in that is rejecting the salvation he's forcing on me. If I have a free will, I should be able to do that, no? Does God take away my free will to reject his salvation the second I accept him?
Like I said, I think the whole difference in our thinking is our religious background.
God doesn't go back on promises and he already said that he saved me from past, present, and future sin. And he has already said that he has written my name in the Book of Life. He's not going to take that away from me.
Just because we can't flap out wings and start flying doesn't change whether or not free will exists to take his own example, merely that one cannot do the impossible.
Flying a plane into a building is not impossible.
For a true believer it basically is. It goes against all that they are.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
He's not going to take that away from me.
I'm in no way claiming that. I'm talking about a person of his own free will who decides that he does not want the forgiveness any more, and rejects it.
Again, you keep moving the focus onto God. I'm not arguing that he's an eternal font of forgiveness. I accept that just like you. I believe eh forgives me all my sins eternally too. That's not the issue.
My problem is with the man himself choosing to not accept the forgiveness. I believe man has a choice in the matter, you believe he doesn't. All right, so how do you reconcile that with free will?
For a true believer it basically is. It goes against all that they are.
Again, that's all assuming he can't stop being a believer. People experience conversions and anti-conversions all the time.
Post by
ASHelmy
Honestly? it doesn't make any sense? Don't you want this life to mean something?
Are you happy knowing that existence is cruel, cold, lonely and pointless?
I would rather be tortured than not exist.
No, it doesn't make me happy in the slightest... neither does knowing that thousands of living beings are being killed every day, that many more are suffering... but I should turn my back on (my perceived) truth just because I want to feel better?
Yes! Yes you should. If you know that this life is the last you have, why waste it grieving over it? Lie to yourself, deceive yourself into happiness. What use is the pursuit of truth in a matter like this? Why know the truth if it will hurt you? I would just LOVE to have every. single. memory of the last 3 years OBLITERATED, just to give myself another chance at the
heaven
this is belief. To go back to the bliss that is believing God is unquestionably real.
But, I am still trying to really believe that God is real. I will not lie to myself just yet.
Post by
TheMediator
But then I go back to my question. What if i reject God? Included in that is rejecting the salvation he's forcing on me. If I have a free will, I should be able to do that, no? Does God take away my free will to reject his salvation the second I accept him?
HSR: I WANT THAT TOY!
God: No, you can't have it little one.
HSR: I HAVE FREE WILL AND I WANT IT! GIVE IT TO ME!
God: No, you cannot have it, you already told me you didn't want it, so I'm not getting it for you.
HSR: ZOMG YOUR A LIAR! IF I HAVE FREE WILL I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT AND YOU HAVE TO DO WHATEVER I SAY.
With the whole soul thing going on, the way I see it if I'm understanding Queggy correctly, you recognize God, he purifies your soul and you're now heaven bound, and even if your mind becomes polluted, deep down you still have a pure soul, even if you're forced to or believe you're forced to do things that are against his wishes.
Yes! Yes you should. If you know that this life is the last you have, why waste it grieving over it? Lie to yourself, deceive yourself into happiness. What use is the pursuit of truth in a matter like this? Why know the truth if it will hurt you? I would just LOVE to have every. single. memory of the last 3 years OBLITERATED, just to give myself another chance at the heaven this is belief. To go back to the bliss that is believing God is unquestionably real.
That's what my dad does, he just ignores anything that would worry him or stress him out, unless it has to do with supporting his family. I just can't do that consciously though, the only way I can really not think about how crappy the world is if I distract myself with school work or video games. Sort of sad, but that's the way I am.
Post by
Queggy
He's not going to take that away from me.
I'm in no way claiming that. I'm talking about a person of his own free will who decides that he does not want the forgiveness any more, and rejects it.
Again, you keep moving the focus onto God. I'm not arguing that he's an eternal font of forgiveness. I accept that just like you.
My problem is with the man himself choosing to not accept the forgiveness.
For a true believer it basically is. It goes against all that they are.
Again, that's all assuming he can't stop being a believer. People experience conversions and anti-conversions all the time.
You're making my head hurt.
:P
The whole difference in our arguments as you've pointed out is that you put the focus on man, and I put it on God. I believe that He won't take salvation away no matter what you do and you believe that your actions determine our current state of salvation. You argue it from the man's point and I argue it from God's point.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
HSR: I WANT THAT TOY!
God: No, you can't have it little one.
HSR: I HAVE FREE WILL AND I WANT IT! GIVE IT TO ME!
God: No, you cannot have it, you already told me you didn't want it, so I'm not getting it for you.
HSR: ZOMG YOUR A LIAR! IF I HAVE FREE WILL I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT AND YOU HAVE TO DO WHATEVER I SAY.
Of course, leave it to you to switch it backwards.
Man: I don't want that git.
God: I want you do have it.
Man: I have free will, and I do not want to take it.
God: Well, I'm going to limit your free will and force you to accept it.
That's the scenario.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The whole difference in our arguments as you've pointed out is that you put the focus on man, and I put it on God.
I believe that He won't take salvation away no matter what you do
and you believe that your actions determine our current state of salvation.
Well, I've been waiting for you to say it. In other words, yes he does limit your free will. Every time I asked you whether he is taking away free will you denied it.
So, you, as a believer, have less of a free will than I do.
That's all I've been trying to understand.
Post by
ASHelmy
Ironically, I think your deceiving yourself right now. If you wanted to do it (believe in god) you could. You can make yourself believe anything. Why you would rather not? I do not know. Perhaps you like to just believe in the scientific method, and use it in every aspect in your life. But answer me this, when has believing in the scientific method done you any good (Note that I said believing in it, not it itself)? I know it has done me any.
I distract my self with school work too, but that doesn't mean that when I try to sleep, I sometimes get stupidly depressed cause I think there is no god. I am reasoning with myself these days, and I almost believe that there's a God, again, but I am still not sure.
Post by
TheMediator
God can force something on you without destroying the concept of free will. Are you stripped of your free will when your parents make you take medicine that you need? No, even though in that particular instance, you were in a position where you were unable to choose something that was impossible. Again back to the flapping your wings thing. Does free will not exist because you're being held back by the forces of gravity? Since gravity, designed by God, is holding you back, he's limiting your choice right? If one took your stance, that by limiting your ability to reject him (although I think more what Queggy is saying is that you aren't actually rejecting him, even if you believe you are) he is stripping free will, that implies that not allowing to fly through the air has stripped you of free will.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Are you stripped of your free will when your parents make you take medicine that you need?
Your free will is limited, yes.
Anything that forces us to do something is a limiting factor to free will.
Post by
TheMediator
Are you stripped of your free will when your parents make you take medicine that you need?
Your free will is limited, yes.
Then I'm not understanding what you mean by free will. I thought free will merely implied that when a choice presents itself, that one is able to make a choice. In this case, there is no choice to be made, however you still have free will, even if you are unable to exercise it (do my muscles go away when I am handcuffed?).
Perhaps you like to just believe in the scientific method, and use it in every aspect in your life. But answer me this, when has believing in the scientific method done you any good (Note that I said believing in it, not it itself)?
Well, I can trust myself a bit more if I make decisions rationally. There's already so much uncertainty in the world, using evidence and reason to decide is the only way at least I have some feeling that I am able to make the right decision.
I don't know, if a God really existed, why would he leave his existence to be so foggy? I'm sure he's well aware of the scientific method; it doesn't seem very benevolent to leave us so tortured to have to believe despite everything all the evidence against his existence. Even if a God did exist, I know (or rather, I believe) free will doesn't exist, so I have to wonder why he would have set things in motion the way he did to create such tormenting situation for me and others.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Are you stripped of your free will when your parents make you take medicine that you need?
Your free will is limited, yes.
Then I'm not understanding what you mean by free will. I thought free will merely implied that when a choice presents itself, that one is able to make a choice. In this case, there is no choice to be made, however you still have free will, even if you are unable to exercise it (do my muscles go away when I am handcuffed?).
You're describing what philosophers would call a power. I have the power of moderately skilled guitar playing, even though there is no guitar within 100 yards of me, making it so I
can't
play the guitar. You have the power of lifting your hand over your head, even though at the moment, something is restricting it. Powers are potencies.
Free will is acting according to your nature freely. Flying (via wings) is not part of my nature, so it doesn't exist as far as will is concerned. You can desire or wish to have wings, you can't will it. Likewise it is part of our nature to be self-mobile, so if mommy forces open my mouth and pours the medicine down and I will to be doing something else (that is within my nature obviously), then my free will is being restricted.
Being raped it very much contrary to free will. Yes, you don't have any choice in the matter, but if you will to be doing something else with your body (that is with your nature), then your free will is being infringed upon.
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