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Sylvanas being 'evil'
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Post by
taurenmoo812
There seems to be a devided opinion on this of sylvanas's role and her ways. On many threads people simple pass her off as an evil witch who would sell her friends soul in for whatever she wants to achieve.
I think its worth making a debate solely about this fact, just to get peoples opinion of this matter.
I for one, have never really been happy about the forsaken within the horde. The concepts of honor and 'noble savage' are what appeals me to being horde. It gives a sort of open window to how you play your character, either you can be heroic, or be bad, but this is based purely on how you wish to play them. In terms of it, what the orcs faught for and there freedom from the legion was them finally being free of the dark past, what Grom sacrificed himself to do, and the dignity they regained...
Now look at the forsaken and there actions. This is as far from what the now honorable Orc, Tauren and in the most part Trolls. This comes comes down to Sylvanas at its core.
She once being a hero of the alliance that faught against the first horde, now is allied with them. But not even as she used to be, but as a twisted version of that. She is dark, yes, she commits to having experiements performed to create weapons to use against her and her forsakens enemies, this is without question.
But is it a case that she is 'evil' in what she does, or is she simply so desperate for the survival of herself and her people, that she resorts of some twisted means acts.
The aftermath of the wrath gate was a copout, having grand apothacary putress and the antagonist was the perfect means to have the finger pointed away from sylvanas it seems. But the question will always remain, did she even intend for the plague to be used on her allies at the gate?
Then you have what happened in one of the comics, weither this is genuine or not, about her allowing an experiement to take place on a child. I would never of even known about this, and neither would anyone playing wow who doesn't bother with the comics, a detail that could have simply slipped by.
So, what is your take on the banshee queen, is she evil and a complete afront to the honor the horde has brought for itself, or is she merely desperate in her actions to help her people survive?
Post by
Patty
'Evil' Is a relative term. One man's villian is another's heroine, so to speak.
Post by
Skreeran
Small correction:
The experiment in question was a), not in the comics, but RotLK, and b), was not on a child, but a human woman. She is described as a "young" woman or girl, and thus, many Alliance loyalists that I have debated love to claim that she's experimenting on children.
It's hardly better to experiment on an adult, but I'd just like to set the record straight.
As for Sylvanas, I'm generally opposed to her and the Forsaken. I wish that they were not part of the Horde, but rather mere allies of the Horde. That was the Horde wouldn't be attributed to their actions, 70% or so of which I don't agree with.
However, I am of the belief that Sylvanas deserves revenge against Arthas. She 100% did not deserve what happened to her, and I hoe that she gets justice. However, the minute she gets her revenge (or revenge is no longer possible), I'm going back to judging her entirely on her actions, and most of those actions I do not approve of.
Nor did I like her attitude in the Pit of Saron against that slave leader.
Her attack on Gilneas is rather troubling as well. Apparently it's so that the Horde can have a port. But they already have a port! Where else would all those Forsaken ships that we see be launched from? Where did Arthas set sail from in Warcradt 3?
Overall, I don't much care for the Forsaken. I believe that some (more than a few, less than many) of them are just trying to survive. I point to the Forsaken refugees as evidence. I think that just like any other race, they have a right to life. They may deserve death on an individual level, and that's fine, but genocide is never justified. Even the "evil" races (trolls, Vrykul, Blackrock orcs, etc.) shouldn't be killed on a purely racial basis (meaning, I would not approve of the slaughter of a Vrykul village, or filling Blackrock spire with Blight).
Post by
ArgentSun
Nor did I like her attitude in the Pit of Saron against that slave leader.
I am a paladin, and I was willing to murder him myself. The man
talked
. Endlessly.
Post by
Skreeran
Nor did I like her attitude in the Pit of Saron against that slave leader.
I am a paladin, and I was willing to murder him myself. The man
talked
. Endlessly.Heh... :P He was pretty talkative.
But all jokes aside, he deserves some respect. He kept our asses safe while we fought Tyrannus.
Post by
Patty
Anyway, I'll answer the question in a little more detail now.
To the Alliance, and some of the Horde, the Forsaken are evil. You know, the whole "Death to the Scourge! And death...to the living!" Wrathgate debacle.
However, to the Forsaken and some of their allies, they are doing the right thing. Think about what Sylvanas has done since being raised, which is good for some people other than herself:
She fought tooth and nail to bring the Blood Elves into the Horde, because she sympathised with them.
She united much of the former-scourge which freed themselves under one banner, and gave them a home.
She has fought hard against the Scourge and the Scarlet Crusade, stopping both of them spilling further south. The Scarlet Crusade would go on a genocidal rampage, and the scourge would do what they like. Killing and eating people. Then raising them.
She is a driving force behind the reason we will be able to pierce through Icecrown.
She has offered the Horde a base in the Northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms.
The RAS is a blessing and a curse. The Wrathgate was terrible, I cannot argue that my any means. However, it severely weakened the scourge, and possibly the Lich King.
--
So yes, the Forsaken have done terrible things, but some of their actions have had positive actions. Sylvanas truly cares about her people, old and new, in my eyes. She just doesn't really care about anyone else. This sounds familiar to many other races and factions in WoW.
Post by
Skreeran
Yes, Sylvanas has done many good things. However, the Horde is about honor and unity. Many good things and many terrible things doesn't cut it, imo.
Post by
Patty
Again, this is applicable to many races.
For example, the Blood Elves who sucked the magic out of Mu'ru.
Or...The Trolls who were cannibals before the Warchief banned it, although some probably still carry it out. Similarly, troll children are made to fight eachother for survival.
Maybe the honour of the Grimtotems and the Warsong, who still aggressively attack the Night Elves?
Post by
Skreeran
Indeed, but the Blood Elves stopped, and the trolls have to at least keep any canibalism that they do a secret. I don't know where it says that Darkspear children are made to fight eachother...
As for the Grimtotems, I don't like them. I don't like them at all. I'm glad that we kill them in Thousand Needles, Feralas, and Duskwallow.
And for the Warsong, for the most part, I do not like the clan. I don't like their attitude and I don't like their actions in Northrend. But their lumbering operations I will defend at least, simply because you can only build so much out of mud and sandstone (which Thrall essentially said himself during the Theramore meeting). Ashenvale is the only forest for hundreds of miles, and the orcs need the wood.
Post by
Patty
I did have a source for the Troll child-fights, but I've lost the link. :<
However, Troll youth do not receive public names until they have earned a name in battle. Until then, they are referred to by generic diminutives
They are basically forced into fights against eachother, I would assume.
--
Also, there is a difference between gathering needed lumber and being as aggressive as the Warsong are.
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
She also feels regretful for the fate of Quel'thalas.
I know the Forsaken benefit from being in the Horde, otherwise they wouldn't have joined it. However, what I'm saying is that their actions with a positive impact are actually overlooked most of the time.
Post by
Adamsm
Sylvanas is insane... let's be completely honest here. Arthas broke her mind and body, she's not 'corrupted good' or 'lawful evil' she's a sadistic creature who feels that what was done to her should be repaid to everyone else... I've actually put this down before in the General Lore section, so I won't dup it here beyond this: When the Lich King falls... let's hope Sylvanas falls with him, otherwise, she might turn all that insane need for revenge on everyone else; humans for failing to help Quel'danas when it fall, the orcs for burning the woods in the second war...... She's losing her mind slowly and surely, so I hope someone ends her before it's too late.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
389776
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Because Trevor and Leonid Bartholomew are evil, right?
I'd like to see some sources, please.
Post by
Adamsm
Aye, I don't agree that every Forsaken is evil... just most of the commander types, but their evil is mainly Sylvanas insanity. I hate to make the comparison.... but it works; the Forsaken are like the Draenei; they revere their leaders, as said leaders have lead them out of times of darkness and death...... though in the case of one them, She ended up getting a lot of them killed....
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
the Forsaken are like the Draenei
I lol'dAnd WOOSH! Right over Dark's head.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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