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Sylvanas being 'evil'
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Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
In that given case, it was two fractions who did not know or understand each other... In the later case, the Forsaken took notice, and betrayed every single human they agreed to help, and then slaughetered them all.
In fact, counting earlier dates would lead to Sylvanas attacking Garithos' forces back when he was Deathorc's minion.
Either way, its the Forsaken who shot first. You realize that you just sorta proved yourself wrong? If Garithos was under Deathorc's control, he would have ordered them attack first and remove their enemy. Without Sylvanas, he would have remained a puppet for the Dreadlords, just like the Scarlet leaders. Yes she killed him, but that's just a part of the massive confusion around this issue.
Rise of the Lich King confirmed that they knew about Arthas' betrayal, they are just to ignorant and stupid.I wouldn't call them stupid or ignorant... after all, they just got attacked by an old ally, so of course their going to be flat footed.
But this topic is spinning off topic again; it's suppose to be about Sylvanas evil, not the Forsaken, which, as said before, is just like the other races; there are evil ones and good ones.
Post by
Skreeran
Yeah, because they are the same orcs who sacked Stormwind, killling all of its children, and using the fallen warriors as experiments for death knights, not to mention ol' Doomhammer was thier leader at a point.
There is a difference between that and a innocent human who is guilty of the Forsaken's one unforgivable crime against humanity:
Being born.Unless those humans are scarlet crusaders, of course. Who burned entire villages of living and tortured Forsaken to death.
And by your own admission, it's not the experimentation that's wrong, it's who it's on.
Post by
HiVolt
I have seen so many people saying that Sylvanas was not responsible for the Wrathgate. I've said this before and I'll probably say it again: Ignorance is not a defense. Being the leader of her faction, she should have had some idea of what was coming. Just because she didn't, doesn't mean that she shouldn't be held responsible. It's Sylvanas' fault that the Wrathgate happened, because she failed to keep her underlings in check.
Now, I'm not saying that she needs to be put to death because of it. But she does need to be punished, and that seems to be happening with 3.3.
Post by
Skreeran
I have seen so many people saying that Sylvanas was not responsible for the Wrathgate. I've said this before and I'll probably say it again: Ignorance is not a defense. Being the leader of her faction, she should have had some idea of what was coming. Just because she didn't, doesn't mean that she shouldn't be held responsible. It's Sylvanas' fault that the Wrathgate happened, because she failed to keep her underlings in check.
Now, I'm not saying that she needs to be put to death because of it. But she does need to be punished, and that seems to be happening with 3.3.Certainly. She's indirectly responsible due to ignorance or inaction.
But she's not
directly
responsible. She didn't plan it, which a lot of Alliance players tend to suggest.
Post by
HiVolt
The only thing I can't understand if how she didn't see it coming. She knew Varimathras was a Dreadlord, a Nathrezim, a master of deceit if you will. He was depicted as a coward in Warcraft 3, saving his own skin and condemning his brothers to death, at least we thought they were dead at the time. She should have known that he would plan to usurp her at some point. I can understand allowing him to live and serve her until the Forsaken were a force to be reckoned with, as they became in WoW, after all, having a Dreadlord on your side when you're relatively weak as a faction is not a bad thing.
But what I don't understand is why she let him live, even after the Forsaken forces had grown. Is it possible that she had larger plans that required him? Would these plans have some relation to the Burning Legion? That's about the only thing I can think of that she might need him for... Speculation is fun :D
I may have to write a speculative article about this.
Post by
Adamsm
But what I don't understand is why she let him live, even after the Forsaken forces had grown. Is it possible that she had larger plans that required him? Would these plans have some relation to the Burning Legion? That's about the only thing I can think of that she might need him for... Speculation is fun :D
I may have to write a speculative article about this.Heh, might go with what I've been speculating for a long time; The Lich King goes down, and that's it for Undeath magic in Azeroth. Maybe she needed the Dreadlord to make sure the Forsaken kept kicking after the King was dead.
Post by
taurenmoo812
But what I don't understand is why she let him live, even after the Forsaken forces had grown. Is it possible that she had larger plans that required him? Would these plans have some relation to the Burning Legion? That's about the only thing I can think of that she might need him for... Speculation is fun :D
I may have to write a speculative article about this.
Well that would tie in with the reason for Varians chin being so big is because of the old god living inside it speculation.
Post by
HiVolt
But what I don't understand is why she let him live, even after the Forsaken forces had grown. Is it possible that she had larger plans that required him? Would these plans have some relation to the Burning Legion? That's about the only thing I can think of that she might need him for... Speculation is fun :D
I may have to write a speculative article about this.Heh, might go with what I've been speculating for a long time; The Lich King goes down, and that's it for Undeath magic in Azeroth. Maybe she needed the Dreadlord to make sure the Forsaken kept kicking after the King was dead.
If this happened though, I would think that Varmiathras would just control her will, along with all of the other undead beings on Azeroth. Unless she planned to chain him like the Shen'dralar did with their demon.
Post by
Rankkor
Baised ftw?
you are not one to talk, after all varian is cruel and dismissive to the orcs, but not the humans and you love that.
After what humans in general have done to her, she should be burned alive for even thinking of destroying thier race
let's do a check-box shall we?
1: human prince of lordaeron invades quel'talas, defouls the sunwell, slaughters 80% of the elven race.
2:other human nations not only didn't sent help to prevent this to happen (they seemed eager to send help to dalaran, but no aid whatsoever to quel'talas) but after the massacre was over, they sen't no help to take back their lands.
3: humans unprovoked tried to kill the forsaken, before they gave them a reason to.
and before you say that forsaken striked first at the humans I should remind you that garithos's band was not the first one they encountered, all forsaken tried to return to their family and they were shunned by them, rejected without having done anything to deserve it, the same can be said for sylvannas, before she did the atrocitys she did on ROTLK or WOW, she was already rejected just for being undead.
besides, garithos acted hostile to them anyways ("Get your filthy animals of my land before I slaugther you all" rings a bell?)
Orcs is understandable, they pretty much destroyd the Windrunner dynasty, but to destroy the humans, who are the reason elves exist...
now this is gold darkton, pure F------ing gold.
from your biased alliance POV, you think sylvannas should put humans on a pedestal for actiosn humans did to elves in the past (
such as helping them on the troll wars and helping them on the second war, and that's about it
) but ignore completely the actions of the humans in the present (
such as....... ignoring their pleas for aid on the scourge invation, then refusing to send help to take back quel'talas, and then try to expell them from existance because they can't tell the diference from a scourge undead and a forsaken undead
)
however you think she should be mean to orcs for their actions on the past (
attempted invation on second war, the horde never reached quel'talas, only burned part of the forest, and then most of them were trolls, the orcs where busy fighting lordaeron and dalaran and blah-blah-blah
) and completely ignore their actions on the present (
they accepted them on the horde, provided them with protection from both the alliance and the scourge, gave them the aid of the shamanistic magic to help them overcome their decaying condition, helped them take back Undercity when it was taken from them by a traitor, and a rather endless list of other actions
)
before you call "biased" someone, take a good look at the mirror bro'.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Heh, might go with what I've been speculating for a long time; The Lich King goes down, and that's it for Undeath magic in Azeroth. Maybe she needed the Dreadlord to make sure the Forsaken kept kicking after the King was dead.
I think we can pretty much pin this one on Uther, his soul telling you 'there must always be a lich king' kinda means even if killing the lich king would destory all undead, that it doesn't matter cause another ones just gonna take Arthas place and the undead will still be doing there weekend workouts.
Also Rankkorr, its little surprise Darkton posted what he did, his one sided Varian based opinion is always a case of ignoring certain facts and over using others to try and win an argument, even when he's failed to do so.
Its quite simply a case of 'I'm alliance and I'm good, your horde and your bad', a harsh generalization, but given all posts made, once that can't really be dismissed.
Post by
Adamsm
If this happened though, I would think that Varmiathras would just control her will, along with all of the other undead beings on Azeroth. Unless she planned to chain him like the Shen'dralar did with their demon.Plausible as well heh.
Heh, might go with what I've been speculating for a long time; The Lich King goes down, and that's it for Undeath magic in Azeroth. Maybe she needed the Dreadlord to make sure the Forsaken kept kicking after the King was dead.
I think we can pretty much pin this one on Uther, his soul telling you 'there must always be a lich king' kinda means even if killing the lich king would destory all undead, that it doesn't matter cause another ones just gonna take Arthas place and the undead will still be doing there weekend workouts.
No, what I had in mind was every undead raised by the Scourge; from the 3rd Generation Death Knights to lowest skeleton, would just drop dead without the power within them anymore. If that was the whole basis for Uther word's, then they could just let the King die and everyone is fine... except for the clean up.
Post by
taurenmoo812
If this happened though, I would think that Varmiathras would just control her will, along with all of the other undead beings on Azeroth. Unless she planned to chain him like the Shen'dralar did with their demon.Plausible as well heh.
Heh, might go with what I've been speculating for a long time; The Lich King goes down, and that's it for Undeath magic in Azeroth. Maybe she needed the Dreadlord to make sure the Forsaken kept kicking after the King was dead.
I think we can pretty much pin this one on Uther, his soul telling you 'there must always be a lich king' kinda means even if killing the lich king would destory all undead, that it doesn't matter cause another ones just gonna take Arthas place and the undead will still be doing there weekend workouts.
No, what I had in mind was every undead raised by the Scourge; from the 3rd Generation Death Knights to lowest skeleton, would just drop dead without the power within them anymore. If that was the whole basis for Uther word's, then they could just let the King die and everyone is fine... except for the clean up.
Aww but what about Leonid :(
And more importantly, who am I going to learn swords from for my new alts if all forsaken are dead?
Post by
Rankkor
who am I going to learn swords from for my new alts if all forsaken are dead?
blood-elves? seriously if their weapon master doesn't teach swords, he should elves are master swordsmen.
Post by
HiVolt
Aww but what about Leonid :(
And more importantly, who am I going to learn swords from for my new alts if all forsaken are dead?
Leonid would die too, he was raised during the second generation of necromancy, so he is included in it.
And you could learn swords from the blood elves.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Aww but what about Leonid :(
And more importantly, who am I going to learn swords from for my new alts if all forsaken are dead?
Leonid would die too, he was raised during the second generation of necromancy, so he is included in it.
And you could learn swords from the blood elves.
Aww poor Leonid :*(
Seriously though I think Uther knows what he's talking about :)
Post by
Morec0
No, no, no, what Uther meant was that if the Lich King was destoryed the Scourge would run rampant across Azeroth, killing everything in its path, like the zerg did after the Overmind's death, before Kerrigan's rise to power.
The only thing that was keeping the Lich King from doing that now is that little sliver of humanity in him that just wont die.
Post by
taurenmoo812
No, no, no, what Uther meant was that if the Lich King was destoryed the Scourge would run rampant across Azeroth, killing everything in its path, like the zerg did after the Overmind's death, before Kerrigan's rise to power.
The only thing that was keeping the Lich King from doing that now is that little sliver of humanity in him that just wont die.
aaah yeah. Dam I forgot that detail about them running rampent.
so then I guess that means the lich kings 'power' is in the raising of an corpse into unlife, but not that which sustains it.
Post by
Morec0
Bingo. A good discription I read is that the Lich King's power/necromantic magic was just the initial "spark" that returned the dead to life. After that they sustained themselves, like a living creature only... not like a living creature.
You get the idea.
Post by
Rankkor
Bingo. A good discription I read is that the Lich King's power/necromantic magic was just the initial "spark" that returned the dead to life. After that they sustained themselves, like a living creature only... not like a living creature.
You get the idea.
yup, there are plenty of undead creatures that live on even after their necromancer is dead.
however, an undead that doesn't have a free will, moves by the will of their necromancer, if they have none, then they just run along rampart in frenzy.
forsaken are diferent, they regained their free will, so even if their necromancer dies, they will still be capable of making their own desitions.
also, let's not forget that one of the reasons they joined the horde was to seek a cure for their curse in shamanistic magic, believing that the magic of the earth would restore their decayed condition (maybe it was bull-crap, maybe not , there is no lore to back it up, and most likely they used that as an excuse to be accepted, but the posibility is still there, who are we to say that it won't be exploited by blizz at some point in the future?)
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