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Sylvanas being 'evil'
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Post by
HiVolt
But in Horde Shamanism, they don't recognize the Light or the Naaru. In the case of the Blood Elves, it was a matter of survival, also. The Blight on the other hand is a weapon that kills everything it touches, that alone is enough to put restrictions on it at the very least. If Thrall did know about the Blight, he should have placed the use of it under the control of the Kor'kron.
Actully Saurfang was the commander of the Kor'kron in northrend.
And? Does the Warchief no longer command the Kor'kron? What difference does it make who the field commander is?
Yeah... but Garrosh might have gotten his hands on it then.... Only if Saurfang allowed that to happen.
Post by
taurenmoo812
And? Does the Warchief no longer command the Kor'kron? What difference does it make who the field commander is?
So what your saying is, if a leader that commands forces who can not be at a certain place at that time, but who sends his troops in to the area, and who gives commander of those troops in that area to a trusted commander or general, that its that leaders fault for troops dying when he isn't present?
I can say exactly the same thing about the alliance forces at the wrath gate, saying it was wrynns fault they died because he wasn't there instead of fordragon. Betrayal from the forsaken RAS aside, it works on both sides of the coin.
Post by
46491
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
And? Does the Warchief no longer command the Kor'kron? What difference does it make who the field commander is?
So what your saying is, if a leader that commands forces who can not be at a certain place at that time, but who sends his troops in to the area, and who gives commander of those troops in that area to a trusted commander or general, that its that leaders fault for troops dying when he isn't present?
I can say exactly the same thing about the alliance forces at the wrath gate, saying it was wrynns fault they died because he wasn't there instead of fordragon. Betrayal from the forsaken RAS aside, it works on both sides of the coin.
No, what I'm saying is, the Kor'kron receive their orders from Saurfang, who directly receives his from Thrall. If Thrall did indeed know about the Blight, and it's capabilities, then he should have placed the weapon into the hands of a force he knew he could trust, rather than leaving it to a force known to be more than a little bit sadistic and well... bat!@#$ crazy.
I'm not saying that Thrall is to be blamed for having sent troops in the first place. I'm not saying he is to be blamed for not being omniscient. I'm saying he failed to keep tabs on what was going on in the factions he commands, he failed to keep those beneath him in check, and he failed in protecting hundreds of the finest soldiers of the Horde and the Alliance because of the first two failures.
Thrall is very much responsible, because he didn't do his job correctly. Do you think Doomhammer would have allowed something like this to happen? No, because Doomhammer would have his nose in absolutely everything that the Horde is doing, to make sure
no one
gets out of line.
I love Thrall as a character, but he is not heavy-handed enough when it comes to leading his faction.
Post by
Adamsm
Thrall is very much responsible, because he didn't do his job correctly. Do you think Doomhammer would have allowed something like this to happen? No, because Doomhammer would have his nose in absolutely everything that the Horde is doing, to make sure no one gets out of line.Heh, yeah but Doomhammer had a different Horde... and well.. you know, the way he took over lol.
Post by
taurenmoo812
Thrall is very much responsible, because he didn't do his job correctly. Do you think Doomhammer would have allowed something like this to happen? No, because Doomhammer would have his nose in absolutely everything that the Horde is doing, to make sure no one gets out of line
Firstly, your making it plainly obvious you think Doomhammer was a better leader then Thrall was. I happen to think the other way and say Thrall has done a better job leading his people to there salvation then doomhammer ever did, but thats just what I'm saying.
Second, you don't actully have a leg to stand on in regards to how doomhammer would have handled that situation. When it came to it, all Doomhammer did was take the raines of a demon possesed army and try to lead them, like a train out of control before it crashed. And when it was all done, he went into hiding well his people were gathered by like vermin.
Don't get me wrong, I liked doomhammer in terms of lore, and his actions were a step in the horde saving itself from complete distruction.
And about Doomhammer having his nose in everything, he knew about Gul'dan deceit, but he let him live, a foolish mistake since Gul'dan did betray them once again. Don't try to claim he did a better job then Thrall.
I love Thrall as a character, but he is not heavy-handed enough when it comes to leading his faction.
I admire Thrall because he's an orc unlike any other. He's intelligent enough to aim for peace at the prospect of it helping his people survive. And seen as how the more heavy handed approach to orcish leaders has just lead them to defeat in the past, well Thralls methods saved them, now tell me whos method works best?
Post by
Skreeran
I don't think that's what Hi is claiming at all.
It's merely that one of Thrall's weaknesses was one of Doomhammer's strengths. Thrall's biggest flaw as a leader is that he's too forgiving, too trusting... He trusts that Sylvanas is doing her job, and so it's his responsibility if she doesn't. Doomhammer never would make that mistake, but he might very well makes mistakes that Thrall would not.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
Firstly, your making it plainly obvious you think Doomhammer was a better leader then Thrall was. I happen to think the other way and say Thrall has done a better job leading his people to there salvation then doomhammer ever did, but thats just what I'm saying. Let me make it clear that I do not think Doomhammer was a better Warchief. He made many mistakes as well in his leadership. Comparing Thrall and Doomhammer as leaders is like comparing the presidencies of Kennedy to Johnson. One is much more diplomatic, where the other is more militaristic. To compare them in the overall aspects of leadership is flawed, because they led differently in different areas. But this issue is not diplomatic in nature, it's militaristic.
Second, you don't actully have a leg to stand on in regards to how doomhammer would have handled that situation. When it came to it,
all Doomhammer did was take the raines of a demon possesed army and try to lead them, like a train out of control before it crashed.
And when it was all done, he went into hiding well his people were gathered by like vermin. And what did he do once he had something he could actually work with? He rose up and led those vermin from their cages until he was killed in combat.
Don't get me wrong, I liked doomhammer in terms of lore, and his actions were a step in the horde saving itself from complete distruction.
And about Doomhammer having his nose in everything, he knew about Gul'dan deceit, but he let him live, a foolish mistake since Gul'dan did betray them once again. Don't try to claim he did a better job then Thrall. This is one of my points though, since Doomhammer knew how costly betrayal could be, he would never have let a betrayal of that magnitude happen again.
I admire Thrall because he's an orc unlike any other. He's intelligent enough to aim for peace at the prospect of it helping his people survive. And seen as how the more heavy handed approach to orcish leaders has just lead them to defeat in the past, well Thralls methods saved them, now tell me whos method works best? I agree that Thrall has wonderful methods of leadership in certain areas, but what he lacks is the strength of command over his own faction that Doomhammer possessed before his death and after the fall of the Old Horde.
It's merely that one of Thrall's weaknesses was one of Doomhammer's strengths. Thrall's biggest flaw as a leader is that he's too forgiving, too trusting... He trusts that Sylvanas is doing her job, and so it's his responsibility if she doesn't. Doomhammer never would make that mistake, but he might very well makes mistakes that Thrall would not. This. I did not say that Doomhammer would be a perfect leader. I was merely trying to point out that in this particular circumstance, if Doomhammer had been Warchief, it would not have happened.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
Unless someone has a source of Sylvanas doing a
good
deed, /end thread.
Defence of Quel'thalas ring a bell?
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
I stand by a few points of my argument:
I support Sylvanas' revenge against Arthas.
Not all Forsaken are evil, and thus, genocide against them is wrong.
The Horde needs to seriously clamp down on the Forsaken. No more blight, no more testing, no more hunting humans. I doubt this will happen, however, as long as Garrosh is Warchief.
Post by
Adamsm
Lookie at what I
found
.
This pretty such ends the low point this thread had to start.
Sylvanas is indeed
very
evil
. And so are the Forsaken as well.I wouldn't put Sylvanas on the same level as Azgalor(Pit lord who replaced Mannoroth), Kel'Thuzad, the man who doomed hundreds of thousands of people to death as cultists and Scourge, Prince Kael'thas, the man who plotted to destroy Outlands in one swoop if 25 raiders hadnt killed him... then plotted to overthrow the legion and turn them all into batteries.
She's '
evil
' but no where close to their levels.
Post by
hymer
Give her time, she'll get there. I have faith.
Post by
Skreeran
Give her time, she'll get there. I have faith.We'll see.
Post by
469682
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Give her time, she'll get there. I have faith.
Oh, I've said before that she's on her way to being the next Lich King if she doesn't die soon; her need for revenge over rides everything else she does after all.
Post by
46491
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
469682
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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