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Making Disco a tank healer.
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Post by
ignayshus
GCD means Global Cooldown, not "1 Sec Global Cooldown," therefore pumping out a FH every GCD doesn't take any haste rating at all.Granted, but I don't believe he was implying every 1.5 seconds or even every 1.2 seconds. Regardless, I would care to see anybody prove that any discipline priest in any existing gear set can achieve 8k average non-crit flash heals. 6,200 spellpower isn't easy come by.
From what I gathered from the dev quotes you posted, we should be close to Pally single target healing. With our shields and ability to react quickly to burst damage, I believe we already are close. Really just in a few fights on ToGC we have problems because the burst damage comes more regularly, first, making it not burst, and second, a recognized design flaw.
I agree and have stated as much, that I don't think we're terribly far off, however if it remains to be seen how minor it is. Right now it's not minor because as you pointed out the frequency of the bosses damage is too great and too large.
I don't think that's a boss design flaw when 3 of the other 4 healers can keep up.
However it is possible that flattening boss dps will fix this so long as the dps stream is sufficiently below the maximum sustainable throughput for the weakest tank healer assuming a reasonable margin for error. I'm not sure that there is a large enough margin for error based on Disco's average sustainable hps. I could be wrong because the mitigation is notoriously hard to calculate, however if our average hps can't keep up now (or the margin for error is too small), how can we reasonably expect our lot to improve in the next tier dungeon?
In order for our lot to improve either the bosses will have to have lower (or perhaps the same, and let gear inflation fix it) average dps then in the current content, gear inflation will have to be greater than content inflation, or discipline will have to receive a single target throughput buff. The first two strike me as highly suspect, but without any we will be where we are now, which is why I don't think it's pointless to consider the third option.
edit: another possibility is that boss dps will outstrip the potential hps of any single healer, forcing a main tank healing team. Considering GC said healers will likely complain that bosses in ICC are hitting really hard, this may be the way the "fix" it.
Post by
ignayshus
I am not saying that i wouldnt like to be able to single heal tanks through 25 ToGc (which is the only place where i see this argument having any validity as everything else in game there is not this issue)
but,
look back to endgame progression raiding, do you not remember doing sarth +drakes where you had to chain together life saving cooldowns.
If the inner elitist in all of us wants to be able to experience endgame content that only a very very very small percentage of people ever get to experience, its a little silly to expect to single heal it.
When has it ever been that way? I am not a lifer i got in wow late so maybe i wasnt around in that time.
It's a reasonable argument and one I've often invoked myself.
Namely: Should anyone be able to solo tank heal a 25m Heroic?
If the answer to that is no, I can live with that and see Disc as an excellent accompaniment to any tank healing setup, however if the answer is yes then something needs to be done with Disc.
Right now it seems the answer is yes, because it is being done.
And actually that makes me consider a fourth option. The average dps of a boss could outstrip the average sustainable hps of any one healer and that would also "fix" the situation. If nobody can solo tank heal, then you focus becomes about synergy between the main tank healing team.
Post by
300899
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Post by
ande9249
^^ cheers
I like how you brought in the Spriest discussion into it, but I ahve a few questions for the group
raid healers (holy or disc): do you notice that your Spriests dont need healing? Do you see them at 75% and ignore since they will eventually heal themselves? 50%?
For anyone that has a healing alt: do you notice how shields prevent damage or make the hots able to work better? Do you have your healbot or grid set up to show which players have a PWS on them and act accordingly?
The point is do these advantages have an actual effect on how the rest of the raid behaves and acts because it has a disc healer. We can talk numbers all we want, and they are valid discussions (EH from our 3% reduced damage is a good point) , but does it change how the players act? Does it change how the fight goes? how much mana they spend, how much faster the boss goes down?
Post by
328121
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Post by
karlusdavius
Nice strawman :P
who was that directed at?
The person above you claiming they pump out 8k flash heals on each gcd. It's not possible as it would require something on the order 6,200 spellpower and 1,000 haste rating.
if you want disc to be an equal substitute for a paladin, then reroll paladin. That doesn't make sense, but regardless, I want to see Disco be where the dev's have stated multiple times (see the dev quotes from the previous page) said that THEY want it to be.
Tanks scaling is the problem, they are fixing it. Tank scaling isn't the whole problem, but it may very well be a considerable part of it. However the Discipline Priest's throughput is lower than the other healers. Not cataclysmically lower (pun intended) but depending on how much dps the bosses are outputting it may be significant.
As to QQ, please explain how what I've done is QQ.
I've shown that the devs say we should be equivalent to pallies when healing a single target, I then point out the obvious: that we aren't (and nobody denies this, though some contest whether we should be capable) and then I throw out some ideas on how that can be turned around.
If you don't like the ideas, address the issues you have with them and include your reasoning. Saying it's bad or op without concrete reasoning behind it is pointless. It's as compelling an argument as claiming what I have to say is QQ when I'm clearly coming at an issue constructively.
I expect better of you than that.
See my first few posts on this topic to see my reasoning. Tanks scaling IS THE PROBLEM! because tanks have high mitigation and avoidance, they made bosses hit hard. They don't like that design. they have admitted it. they are fixing it.
We are at paladin levels because we heal in a dual kind of way. we can't pull out 16k non crit heals quickly because we would equal paladins in healing, then surpass them with mitigation. You are missing that in your assumptions.
We are at paladin level, just differently.
Typically, QQ means crying. Which your doing here. It seems you have it in your head that changes are needed even tho good valid points have been put across, i expected better of you.
ICC will change things. You only have 5 days to wait and find out...tm
Post by
ignayshus
I'm having a constructive and reasoned discussion of a design flaw, just because you don't agree with my conclusion doesn't make it qq.
And no, I'm not forgetting mitigation, I just don't see it bringing us on par with paladins in practice and unfortunately it's tough to nail down on paper, so observation is really all one has to go on atm.
Regardless, we wont know for months if it will be fixed in ICC Heroic considering all the gating however the disparity that exists in ToGC Heroic will still exist in the mean time, though perhaps gear inflation will negate it.
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450879
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17744
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91278
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Post by
karlusdavius
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
TEA TIME
/popcorn
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312967
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300899
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