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10.2.7
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Making Disco a tank healer.
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Post by
karlusdavius
Disco's raw hps including absorbs is still south of the other three healers on a single target, but whether it's sufficient for icc remains to be seen of course. If the damage is flat enough that the RNG from relying on crit doesn't matter then in ICC it's a non-issue for now, however GC has already stated crit values will be much lower in cata, which creates new potential problems on the horizon for a spec that leans heavily on crit and doesn't benefit much from haste.
The tree won't be the same in cata, so looking that far forward is not needed, so don't. We DO benefit from haste. i run with holy gear when i offspec disc, thats 20% haste. i also get 35%+ crit out of it too. Haste is
FANTASTIC!
for discipline. It's a myth that we don't need haste. We do!
*
1. Not gonna happen due to pvp implicantions.
2. I really don't think more rng is what we need.
3. Definitely not going to happen because of pvp implications.
4. Agree of course, but not going to happen without some nerf to it's synergy or usability in pvp.
In terms of pvp, discipline is falling behind druids at the moment. The glyphs themselves are different to pvp from pve and won't change much, PS glyph is needed for pvp, flash heal is usually taken for mana savings. that leaves one glyph, penance or the shield glyph that i suggested. That said, Penance is used as a last ditch move since it opens you up for a silence, so some wouldn't even take the glyph. So pvp wise it doesn't have THAT bigger implication at all.
More mitigation IS what we need. our healing values are fine, but when Weakened Soul is on CD and we have a 2 penance cycle to go through to back back to step number one, we start to struggle. We need to be able to use PW:S more often to fill the void, and having it off the back of our staple talent is a good way to do it.
and for the grace change, make is dispellable.
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Post by
ZoraLink
@zoralink: you're not a substitute for a holy paladin.
@Ignayshus: Holy paladins aren't a substitute for a disc priest. :)
Post by
karlusdavius
I still disagree. There is nothing wrong at all with us, making us use greater heal is BAD. Flash heal is not a holy spell, it's a healing spell that is excellent.
You talk about haste for only flash heal, however penance is also effected by haste.
squeeze in another flash heal between penance cooldowns.
Not really. If you think of it like that then your misguided. You don't ALWAYS have the BT buff. Reducing your casting time is paramount at high levels and you should gear as if you don't ever have this buff. That way, when you do get it, it's an added bonus, not something you rely on. Flash heals at 1.1 second cast times is excellent for me and i know i can keep firing off those heals.
My Flash stats are as follows.
Flash Heal Crit - 9,000
Mitigation via DA - 2,700
Total effectiveness - 11,700
that's huge considering my greater heal takes a good 6 - 7 second longer to cast (ill check those numbers later) and doesn't get buffed with my talents. Flash heal is OUR FILLER SPELL. it's excellent at doing so, stop trying to change the whole core of discipline to greater heal.
The druid is the closest with Living Seed adding a 30% hot over 15 seconds
LS won't save a tank from a 40k blow. Mitigation will.
The DA change derives the exact same benefit from crit that we already get. The bigger the heal, the bigger the shield. So no it wouldn't make it less valuable for the generation of shields which is what it seems you're implying.
The DA change I'm proposing makes the protective shield produced linear, as opposed to it's current spikey state, and doesn't incentivize flash heal (a raid healing spell by design) over greater heal (a tank healing spell by design) for tank healing.
But then we have no go to stats. We are crit based, our gearing philosophy is spell power, crit and int. That's it. That is our goal. The better content we do, the more gear we get, the bigger and less RNG our output goes. Crit to us
MEANS
something because of that proc, i don't want to waste a GCD putting a buff on a player to
THEN
start healing, because ill be putting more pressure on myself and probbaly end up wiping because my near 1 second penance didn't hit in time.
Where does it say that greater heal is a tank healing spell? where does it say that flash heal isn't? were priests, we have many tools and were use to using different things. greater heal is fine as a spell that can sometimes be used. just not used as a filler or our to go spell, it's too powerful.
So, back on topic. The Grace change is nice, i can see it as a healers vigilance effect. However, the others are bad. Discipline just needs some logic applied and a few tweaks like i proposed and we will be fine. That said, come ICC i can see us becoming number one tank healers again very quickly. The avoidance changes are excellent news for us.
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307598
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Post by
Paolo
If you're a tank healer not using GH in your rotation (PWS > Penance > GH) then you're either doing content that's too easy or you're doing it wrong. GH is just too good; with 5/5 Divine Fury, it's better HPS and better HPM than FH.
(because gheal isn't usable in it's current state)If you spec for it (Divine Fury is enough, no need for Improved Healing) it is more than usable. And what tank healer wouldn't choose to spend talent points to unlock one of their best tools? It might not be spam-worthy, but it fills a big hole between FH and Penance. Which, if I'm reading you right, is one of your big concerns.
Any haste you have that does not provide enough time to get an extra heal is severely diminished in value. You're better off replacing that extra haste with spellpower or crit, that is the effect of these haste thresholds on a cd cycle healer.I like the thinking. But in reality, we're not as quantum as a shadow priest, because our "rotations" are not truly rotations. In my experience, all haste is good haste, at least insofar as tank-heal-spamming is concerned. It loses value on FH, but every point of haste gets used on Penance and GH. My GH is a 1.9 second cast before BT. I do not gem haste; I gear for it.
(I logged in shadow gear, but IIRC my haste is about 20% with Enlightenment, and my holy crit is 38%+ unbuffed.)
If we get to +70% crit then yes the effect of RNG diminishes noticeably...If you're well geared and spamming heals, your DA stacks should be near the 10k cap.
DA isn't the thing that keeps Disc afloat, Penance and Shields are the things that do that. DA is a very nice bonus.On harder content, at least in the current raids, DA is not icing on the cake. It is a significant part of what we bring to the table.
Post by
ZoraLink
<lots of stuff>
Homogenization is bad, but poor design (like building a healer around a cd cycle) is worse.
You just said it right there. In a lot of ways, you're attempting to homogenize a discipline priest into being a second, alternative holy paladin. They're not the same.
Discipline, as it stands, is currently either being viewed as a raid bubbler or a tank healer. What I have yet to understand is why people don't realize that combining the two works just as well.
Basically: Say you're in a raid. You have a holy paladin, discipline priest, resto druid. Let's go with Northrend Beasts. Then let's go to, say, Gormok, since he's the first fight. The damage there is fairly predictable, so, shields are a nice boon. Staggering stomp to be even more specific (/narrow down). Normally, the discipline priest and holy paladin would be on tank healing, with the resto druid on raid heals. So, for the staggering stomp, why not shield all the melee around Gormok? This then relieves the stress on the resto druid, who can then assist on healing the tanks. And since the melee barely even take damage since your shield blocks most (if not all) of the stomp, your tanks now have 3 healers on them, rather than 2. Additionally, the borrowed time buff from shielding the melee immediately lets you hop back into tank healing if they've taken any significant hits. You may not be top heals, but who cares as long as no one dies but the boss?
Basically, what I'm getting at is this: Discipline is not the top tank healer. It also should not be following the rotation that seems to be your arguments: Discipline is not "Shield, penance, flash heal, flash heal, flash heal, penance, flash heal, flash heal, flash heal, shield, penance..." Discipline should also be assisting on raid healing in some way, not just getting tunnel vision and focusing only on the tanks. Sure, it's made mainly for tank healing. But it also has some incredible tools for helping out the raid. Discipline is the only healer I've seen that can
effectively
keep up both tanks and the raid at the same time. Paladins generally have DPS start dying, druids (can) have trouble keeping the tanks alive, shamans are usually either built for tank or raid healing, not always both.
You seem to want discipline to become focused on only tank healing but are missing discipline's effectiveness at being a glue healer, keeping the healing together. However, don't misinterpret that as discipline not being a true healer, because, to be honest, it's not. It's a healer/mitigator. Mitigation is worth more than healing.
...Anyway, my ramble is done. Just some food for thought.
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