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Puncture- why not?
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Post by
467179
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Post by
Haxzor
you have a problem with rage?
Post by
415470
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Post by
467179
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Post by
467179
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Post by
Porcell
Look, I've love to pick up Puncture. I really would. The question is; what do you give up for it?
Give me a good alternative for what to give up to pick up puncture, and I'd gladly do it. The answer is that there isn't a good tradeoff to make. Deep Wounds? Armored to the Teeth? Imp Thunderclap? Those are the only three off the top of my head. No way am I giving up the first two for some rage savings. Imp Thunderclap COULD be given up if you are absolutely sure someone else is covering the improved debuff for you.
Taking 3 points out of Shield Spec doesn't make sense either. You would be giving up one rage talent for another, and losing 3% block on top of that.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhoZVItMx0zidIzsGo:cdo
Find me three free talent points in that spec that make sense.
It's not like Puncture is bad; I use over 50% of my GCDs on Devastate. It's just that there are more valuable alternatives to picking up another Rage talent.
Post by
467179
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Post by
Porcell
Call me crazy, but deep wounds. I get enough aoe threat by cycling through targets, as i can get ~9k single target tps with
this
build.
Were you just angry at your last talent point and decided to banish it to Iron Will for no reason at all?
I'm not asking for criticizm on my build, it's my own personal build. I'm not suggesting you would play better with it either. It's
my
build.
Well, you'll get it anyway. Imp Spell Reflect is marginal (and marginal is being generous, it's pretty terrible), Iron Will is pointless, and as we've already discussed the Puncture isn't very glowing either.
As for Deep Wounds, it doesn't have anything to do with AoE threat. Deep Wounds ends up being roughly a 5% increase in damage and threat. What does puncture do? 3 less rage per devastate? So it takes 3 devastates to give you a "free" heroic strike. Over a five minute fight you have 200 GCDs, say 100 of them on used on Devastates, that means you could theoretically get an extra 33 heroic strikes. So that's an extra 495 damage and 259 hidden threat, so 16335 damage and 24882 threat over five minutes. Just roughly, saying you do 2k dps and 6k tps, that's a total of 2,000*5*60 = 600,000 damage and 6,000*5*60 = 1,800,000 threat, so your 33 heroic strikes added 2.7% damage and 1.4% additional threat.
Post by
467179
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467179
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467179
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467179
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Post by
Haxzor
And as for deep wounds, yeah it does increase your dps and tps on single target, but it is most useful for aoe. That was the whole reason it was designed in the first place. Warrior's never had a problem with single target threat so that 5% doesn't matter for single target. If you recall, im saying putting these points in puncture is useful on a very situational basis, but still useful just simply because of which move they improve, they aren't meant to maximize anything.
And as I said I handle aoe threat by cycling targets, so I don't need deepwounds to aid me in that.
hmm 2.7 + 1.4 = 4.1
...that's close enough to 5 for me
You notice he says "In dps
AND
threat" 4.1 is nowhere near close to 10.
Iron will is useless, when are you stunned in a raid for more than 1 second?
What bosses do you use Spell Reflect on (to stop something being cast on someone else)?
If you have no problems with rage, then wtf are you going on about?
Post by
Porcell
Iron will pointless? Explain this.
1 point in Iron will is 7% reduction in stun length. Even in the rare times you to get stunned (like Icehowl Headbutts or Freezing Slash maybe), you are stunned for what, like 3 seconds? So 7% reduction means the stun is 2.8 seconds instead of 3 seconds. It's infinitesimal and pointless.
Imp spell reflect is very good, you don't know what you're talking about there.
There are two parts to Imp Spell Reflect. One is reflecting spells cast against party members. This is useful in 1 boss encounter; Malygos phase 2; and by "useful" I mean "it actually does something" and not "OMG this totally changes the encounter so it's easier." The second part of the effect is 4% spell miss. Now, even assuming this spell miss applies to ALL spell damage (which I question; I doubt if this 4% miss applies to aura affects like Twins' Light/Dark Surge or DoT damage from things like Burning Bile or Poison, or Leeching Swarm). Even so, the vast majority of damage a tank receives is physical, much more than 50%.
However, my major issue with this is that (admitted assumption) that the 4% spell miss would only apply to direct damage spells; i.e. those types of spells that could also be spell reflected. Auras, DoTs, etc would not fall under this 4% miss. And thus, Imp Spell Reflect is a bad talent.
And as for deep wounds, yeah it does increase your dps and tps on single target, but it is most useful for aoe. That was the whole reason it was designed in the first place.
The whole reason Deep Wounds was designed was for tank's AoE DPS and Threat? Huh?
Now I won't deny that Deep Wounds increases AoE DPS and Threat. I mean, it does, but it does by virtue of being an all around DPS and Threat increase. The way to look at Deep Wounds is to consider it a bonus ~500 Damage and Threat added on to every critical strike. Shield Slam, Devastate, and Heroic Strike/Cleave all have an additional 15% crit from talents, so on the majority of your abilities you are going to have around 25% crit rate.
You seem to be considering Deep Wounds like Thunderclap or Shockwave, the way you are saying it's an AoE increase. It's not; Deep Wounds is a flat everything increase, just like One Hand Weapon Spec, Cruelty, or Armored to the Teeth is.
hmm 2.7 + 1.4 = 4.1
...that's close enough to 5 for me
Might want to read it again. 33 Heroic Strikes over 5 Minutes is +2.7% damage and +1.4% threat. 3/3 Deep Wounds over 5 minutes is +5% damage and +5% threat.
In fact I use so little rage, I have hs and devastate in a macro:
#showtooltip
/cast Devastate
/cast Heroic Strike
every devastate is a hs too.
Grats, I have a similar macro to Revenge (it's a bit more control than linking to Devastate). But don't fool yourself into thinking you can use a macro like that because of Puncture. You can get away with using a macro like that because you are getting pounded to oblivion by bosses.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
Basically my reasoning for these tallents is not at all a rage issue, it's very much a situational issue, but it's still important because of the fact that it affects only THE MOST IMPORTANT MOVE YOU HAVE. And if you don't agree that devastate is the most important move you
n
have... well... hehe...
Shieldslam, revenge, conc.blow, shockwave are al better then devastate.
Devastate is like heroic strike for a furywarrior, a ragedump when you nothing better to do and ofcourse to apply a nice 5sunderstack, but that's where it ends, the tps is pafethic.
Post by
Haxzor
Basically my reasoning for these tallents is not at all a rage issue, it's very much a situational issue, but it's still important because of the fact that it affects only THE MOST IMPORTANT MOVE YOU HAVE. And if you don't agree that devastate is the most important move you
n
have... well... hehe...
Shieldslam, revenge, conc.blow, shockwave are al better then devastate.
Devastate is like heroic strike for a furywarrior, a ragedump when you nothing better to do and ofcourse to apply a nice 5sunderstack, but that's where it ends, the tps is pafethic.
You're a bit behind the 8 ball aren't you. Dev out tps' CB and SW and I'm pretty sure even revenge.
Post by
Porcell
Shieldslam, revenge, conc.blow, shockwave are al better then devastate.
Devastate is like heroic strike for a furywarrior, a ragedump when you nothing better to do and ofcourse to apply a nice 5sunderstack, but that's where it ends, the tps is pafethic.
The TPS of Devastate is pathetic? It's our second highest threat ability.
Random WMO of a Jaraxxus fight (using Glyph of Devastate):
Devastate average damage was ~2500
Revenge average damage was ~2600 (would have been ~3100 if I had Imp Revenge talent)
Shield Slam average damage was ~4000
CBlow/SW average damage was ~3200
Devastate average threat was ~3730
Revenge average threat was ~2750 (3250 with Imp Revenge)
Shield Slam average threat was ~4800
CBlow/SW average threat was ~3200
CBlow/SW/Revenge have lower crit rate than Shield Slam and Devastate. SW uses spell hit rate. Revenge is still good since it's such a low rage cost and does slightly more damage, but it does less threat than Devastate. Shield Slam is of course Top Dog.
So no, Devastate isn't some lowly ability. And the days of using CBlow and Shockwave on cooldown are over. Devastate isn't a "rage dump" (in any sense of the word). It has a lower priority than Shield Slam, and more or less the same priority as Revenge. But Revenge and Shield Slam are going to be on CD for half of your GCDs, so the rest of them to into Devastate. Devastate should be right up there with Heroic Strike as your most used, most damaging, and most threat producing ability over the entirety of a fight.
Post by
Sakkura
There are two parts to Imp Spell Reflect. One is reflecting spells cast against party members. This is useful in 1 boss encounter; Malygos phase 2; and by "useful" I mean "it actually does something" and not "OMG this totally changes the encounter so it's easier." The second part of the effect is 4% spell miss. Now, even assuming this spell miss applies to ALL spell damage (which I question; I doubt if this 4% miss applies to aura affects like Twins' Light/Dark Surge or DoT damage from things like Burning Bile or Poison, or Leeching Swarm). Even so, the vast majority of damage a tank receives is physical, much more than 50%.
However, my major issue with this is that (admitted assumption) that the 4% spell miss would only apply to direct damage spells; i.e. those types of spells that could also be spell reflected. Auras, DoTs, etc would not fall under this 4% miss. And thus, Imp Spell Reflect is a bad talent.
Completely agree, and to elaborate further I'll add an example. Remember when improved defensive stance didn't give us an enrage effect, but only reduced spelldamage taken by 6% (or whatever it was). Even then, it was an unpopular talent, despite the fact that 6% less spelldamage taken is vastly better than 4% spell miss (since a flat percentage reduction always applies, and probably includes more damage sources than the latter).
Post by
Rubendesmet619
Shieldslam, revenge, conc.blow, shockwave are al better then devastate.
Devastate is like heroic strike for a furywarrior, a ragedump when you nothing better to do and ofcourse to apply a nice 5sunderstack, but that's where it ends, the tps is pafethic.
The TPS of Devastate is pathetic? It's our second highest threat ability.
Random WMO of a Jaraxxus fight (using Glyph of Devastate):
Devastate average damage was ~2500
Revenge average damage was ~2600 (would have been ~3100 if I had Imp Revenge talent)
Shield Slam average damage was ~4000
CBlow/SW average damage was ~3200
Devastate average threat was ~3730
Revenge average threat was ~2750 (3250 with Imp Revenge)
Shield Slam average threat was ~4800
CBlow/SW average threat was ~3200
CBlow/SW/Revenge have lower crit rate than Shield Slam and Devastate. SW uses spell hit rate. Revenge is still good since it's such a low rage cost and does slightly more damage, but it does less threat than Devastate. Shield Slam is of course Top Dog.
So no, Devastate isn't some lowly ability. And the days of using CBlow and Shockwave on cooldown are over. Devastate isn't a "rage dump" (in any sense of the word). It has a lower priority than Shield Slam, and more or less the same priority as Revenge. But Revenge and Shield Slam are going to be on CD for half of your GCDs, so the rest of them to into Devastate. Devastate should be right up there with Heroic Strike as your most used, most damaging, and most threat producing ability over the entirety of a fight.
Bah, haven't tanked since WotlK a lot(raiding as DPS so...)
My apoligies :p.
Post by
marklartank
Look, I've love to pick up Puncture. I really would. The question is; what do you give up for it?
this is the only reason nobody picks it up. i can't even find room for it in my non-DW builds.
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