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HPS, Overhealing & OOM
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Post by
179389
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
Druid forums
. Enjoy!
And the healing assignment part of this thread has been volleyed back and forth. Points made, rebutted, remade, and I think we're there.
Panik8 asked a question about Druids here. What's the harm in answering it here?
That's because you still don't get it.
No you don't get it. Sure, "your" way may work. It may even work well. But it is not the only way to do things, not by a long shot. "My" way certainly also works very well and as I said earlier I think "my" way is more effective (utilizing the classes unique strength better). But we can't settle that here so I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
Post by
dhampir1989
"My" way certainly also works very well and as I said earlier I think "my" way is more effective
No, your way just strokes your epeen more.
Post by
Paolo
Mega is never wrong. It's our good fortune to have him with us. Show some appreciation.
Post by
dhampir1989
Mega is never wrong. It's our good fortune to have him with us. Show some appreciation.
Im just jealous of his INCREDIBLE HPS.
(And btw Coventry > all)
EDIT:
*cough* I can do maths at 1:40 am
Post by
karlusdavius
now you know why i don't reply to these types of threads anymore. pretty obvious that the druid forums don't want him, so he has decided that this is the new druid forums.
Post by
MegaVolt
Mega is never wrong. It's our good fortune to have him with us. Show some appreciation.
I am wrong often enough and when this is proven I have no problems admitting it.
But I hope you understand that posts like "MEGA IS JUST A HPS $%^&*", "MEGA WANTS TO STRIKE HIS EPEEN" and trolling like that do not really help in proving that I am wrong. Quite the opposite, the complete lack of arguments and the fact that people resort to personal attacks instead prove that my arguments are right.
Let's just take the Shaman group assign for example. It was said that he should be assigned to group 1 to keep AH on the tank and on the melee dps. This makes no sense. The CH jumps can not be controlled, they auto-target. A group assign is completely pointless. An assign like "keep AH on the tanks and prioritize melee with CH" makes much more sense. Does it really matter in which groups the tank or the melee are? You want procs on them, groups are irrelevant for that.
Now unless someone has a valid argument to show that what I just said is wrong I have to assume that I am right. Go prove me wrong if you do not agree. But insults just don't cut it.
Post by
dhampir1989
But I hope you understand that posts like "MEGA IS JUST A HPS $%^&*", "MEGA WANTS TO STRIKE HIS EPEEN" and trolling like that do not really help in proving that I am wrong. We gave up trying to "prove" you wrong days ago, when you ignored several systematic deconstructions of your position.
I'd also like you to look up what proof is, and what it applies to.
Quite the opposite, the complete lack of arguments and the fact that people resort to personal attacks instead prove that my arguments are right.
1. Argumentatum ad hominem only applies if you use the logical fallacy of linking an undesirable personal trait of the holder of a view with the view. "you are wrong and a moron" is fine, "you are wrong because you are a moron" isn't.
2. Not proving you wrong =\= proving you right.
3. There have been plenty of counter arguements given, across several threads, you just cherry-pick ones to defend against and declare yourself superior.
Let's just take the Shaman group assign for example. It was said that he should be assigned to group 1 to keep AH on the tank and on the melee dps. This makes no sense. The CH jumps can not be controlled, they auto-target. A group assign is completely pointless. An assign like "keep AH on the tanks and prioritize melee with CH" makes much more sense. Does it really matter in which groups the tank or the melee are? You want procs on them, groups are irrelevant for that.
You are making the assumption that the only reason to have people in groups is for mechanics reasons.
If there is no mechanics reason why not to group them together, and make it easier on healers to know where melée are, as opposed to person X being in one group and their healer over healing because of that, it makes sense to do that.
Now unless someone has a valid argument to show that what I just said is wrong I have to assume that I am right. Go prove me wrong if you do not agree. But insults just don't cut it.We have done.
Repeatedly.
You appear to have selective vision however.
Post by
MegaVolt
We gave up trying to "prove" you wrong days ago, when you ignored several systematic deconstructions of your position.Right, lots and lots of insults and troll posts are a "systematic deconstruction of my position". Really made my day!
1. Argumentatum ad hominem only applies if you use the logical fallacy of linking an undesirable personal trait of the holder of a view with the view. "you are wrong and a moron" is fine, "you are wrong because you are a moron" isn't.
2. Not proving you wrong =\= proving you right.
3. There have been plenty of counter arguements given, across several threads, you just cherry-pick ones to defend against and declare yourself superior.
1. There is your problem. "You are wrong" is never fine. It is just stupid. It is a statement without any kind of prove whatsoever. It is what you have been doing here all the time. It is just plain trolling. Fine would be "You are wrong because (X)" with X being a logical argument and not a personal insult. You obviously are not capable of providing logical arguments.
2. Now you at least accept that you didn't prove me wrong. A step in the right direction. You are right, by not proving me wrong you don't prove me right. But since you tried to prove me wrong, you failed miserably at it and then you started personal attacks against me because you know you lost the argument I think it is justified to take that as a strong hint (not proof of course) that I am right.
3. This is the first thread in which group assignments came up. What arguments in other threads are you talking about when this subject was not even discussed before?
You are making the assumption that the only reason to have people in groups is for mechanics reasons.
If there is no mechanics reason why not to group them together, and make it easier on healers to know where melée are, as opposed to person X being in one group and their healer over healing because of that, it makes sense to do that.
Yea right, because you have always exactly 3 melee to fit them in the group with 2 tanks so that "heal group 1" is equivalent to "heal melee and keep procs on the tanks".
If you happen to have a number of melee so that they fit groups nicely then it so happens that the group assigns are the same as the usually much better job assigns. That's not an argument for group assigns, quite the opposite actually.
In other words: You want melee to get healed by Shaman CH jumps. Very valid, very good. You want melee to be grouped up in the first groups so that healers know where they are and to make targeting PoH more effective. Very valid, very good, too.
But it is a pure coincidence that in such a situation a healing assign "heal groups 1 and 2" may be the same as "heal all melee". You might just as well have a few melee in group 3 or have not enough melee to fill 2 groups and instead have a caster in that group, too. The assign "focus on melee for procs" is always valid, the assign "focus on groups 1 and 2" on the other hand is not (depending on the number of melee you are running with).
Now unless someone has a valid argument to show that what I just said is wrong I have to assume that I am right. Go prove me wrong if you do not agree. But insults just don't cut it.We have done.
Repeatedly.
You appear to have selective vision however.
You say so but when I look up your so called "proof" of me being wrong I just find personal attacks, insults - and not a single valid argument. Just stating that somewhere at some time I was proved wrong without having any kind of reference to prove that claim (hint: because you can't) doesn't help. Here again: Your whole post contained almost only personal attacks. Not a single valid argument was in there. Your grouping statement might count as a not very well thought through argument and I easily proved it wrong. So I guess your next post will again contain tons and tons of insults and lack arguments. I'm getting used to it.
By the way have you ever tried addons that do dynamic group layouts? Instead of showing the pointless WoW groups in the raid frame they will re-arrange them so that you see a group for tanks, a group for melee, a group for ranged dps and a group for healers. I guess addons like that are not popular among Priests since you have to know the groups for PoH but no other healing class has a spell like that. For all other healers it can be very useful to use a dynamic group layout and obviously those will not work when group assigns are gived. Task assigns on the other hand will go perfectly with dynamic group layouts.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
dhampir1989
Right, lots and lots of insults and troll posts are a "systematic deconstruction of my position". Really made my day!I can cite several posts where you have been shown to be wrong, dating back at least a week. Several of them in the thread about the Valkyr fight.
1. There is your problem. "You are wrong" is never fine. It is just stupid. It is a statement without any kind of prove whatsoever. It is what you have been doing here all the time. It is just plain trolling. Fine would be "You are wrong because (X)" with X being a logical argument and not a personal insult. You obviously are not capable of providing logical arguments.This is precisely my point. You cherry pick parts of posts to attack while not looking at the ensemble. Naturally, the assertion of incorrectness is not a valid logical arguement, but neither is proposing something with no supporting evidence, which you do.
2. Now you at least accept that you didn't prove me wrong. A step in the right direction. You are right, by not proving me wrong you don't prove me right. But since you tried to prove me wrong, you failed miserably at it and then you started personal attacks against me because you know you lost the argument I think it is justified to take that as a strong hint (not proof of course) that I am right.Again, this is a strawman arguement, You have been shown to be wrong repeatedly, across several forums. However you assume my generalised logical statement is in reference to actuality, as opposed to the basic logical principle of non-dualisms.
3. This is the first thread in which group assignments came up. What arguments in other threads are you talking about when this subject was not even discussed before?
Again, another generalised statement you have taken specifically in order to perform a strawman arguement.
Yea right, because you have always exactly 3 melee to fit them in the group with 2 tanks so that "heal group 1" is equivalent to "heal melee and keep procs on the tanks".
If you happen to have a number of melee so that they fit groups nicely then it so happens that the group assigns are the same as the usually much better job assigns. That's not an argument for group assigns, quite the opposite actually.Evidence for that assertion of yours at the end please.
Also, even if there are more melee than 1 full group (quite likely), that is no reason NOT to keep them in, say, group 1 and 2, rather than one in each group.
In other words: You want melee to get healed by Shaman CH jumps. Very valid, very good. You want melee to be grouped up in the first groups so that healers know where they are and to make targeting PoH more effective. Very valid, very good, too. Not at all my arguement, considering the range on PoH, although it does come into it.
It is far easier to monitor and manage melee health if they are all in one place on your raid frames, with people expecting them to be taking damage when they do, than say, having one or two dotted across groups.
But it is a pure coincidence that in such a situation a healing assign "heal groups 1 and 2" may be the same as "heal all melee". You might just as well have a few melee in group 3 or have not enough melee to fill 2 groups and instead have a caster in that group, too. The assign "focus on melee for procs" is always valid, the assign "focus on groups 1 and 2" on the other hand is not (depending on the number of melee you are running with).
This depends on the group set up. It would not be unreasonable to place 2 healers in with the excess melee, normally at least the one assigned to heal them. In which case the assignment is entirely valid. Your assertion seems to neglect that healers dont tend to benefit from grouping with each other.
Just stating that somewhere at some time I was proved wrong without having any kind of reference to prove that claim
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=125900.4#p1514979
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=125900.3#p1491272
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=130198.2#p1567106
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=125900.2#p1487406
There are more.
but no other healing class has a spell like that.
Shaman would disagree with you.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
dhampir1989
Er. Dhampir. None of the links you have posted are valid.
3. This is the first thread in which
group assignments
came up. What arguments in other threads are you talking about when
this subject
was not even discussed before?
Whilst not evidence for this topice, they are instances where he has done exactly what Ive said to have done, and denied it.
(By the way, guys, you're both quoting text in small snippets. You're both decontextualising said snippets by doing so. You are therefore both wrong and trolling each other. It's a bit pathetic, really.)Its entirely possible to address individual aspects of a compound arguement without decontextualising, which I attempt to always do, as it tends to give a clearer reply.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
dhampir1989
Whilst not evidence for this topice, they are instances where he has done exactly what Ive said to have done, and denied it.
Except, because you split up his post with quotes, you forgot that he meant "show me where I have been proven wrong
about group assignments
". Good job.
Which in itself was a strawman about my position. Good job.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
dhampir1989
But it isn't. The way the current discussion has gone, it
is
about group assignments. That's not a strawman, it's just a fact. If you're not trying to address that, then you're not addressing anything relevant.Forgive me for trying to address more than just a single aspect of a problem at once then.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
blah blah personal attacks
Thanks for proving my point.
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=125900.4#p1514979
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=125900.3#p1491272
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=130198.2#p1567106
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=125900.2#p1487406
There are more.
Sinespe really said it all. You completely missed the point. This is about group assignments. Selfquote ftw: 3. This is the first thread in which group assignments came up. What arguments in other threads are you talking about when this subject was not even discussed before?
But even assuming you had not completely missed the point ... just look at those links of yours. I have not been proven wrong there, not by a long shot. In fact I responded to those posts, you just didn't link my response. I clearly proved beyond any doubt that (compared to other encounters with heavy spike damage) Twin Valks isn't really spiky. I also clearly proved beyond any doubt that Renew is an extremely valid and awesome healing spell in that encounter. Just look at
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=130198.3#p1569130
Those logs linked there really speak for themselves.
And now
you
accuse
me
of having tunnel vision, of only cherry picking the posts I respond to? Seriously? Get lost!
but no other healing class has a spell like that.
Shaman would disagree with you.
Which Shaman healing spell only targets his group? Then name the Shaman spell that works like PoH. I'm curious since there really is none. You can't seriously be referring to the passive HST, right?
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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