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10.2.6
[Enh] weapon speed Vs weapon DPS?
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Post by
warrigt
Currently:
MH:
Vulmir
OH:
Ironforge Smasher
I picked up
Black Knight's Rondel
via a greed roll.
Now is the weapon speed that much more important than the DPS increase, that I should keep the IF Smasher?
edit: Should I believe
this comparison
?
Post by
181706
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Haxzor
your FT will hit for a lot less, and over the stage of about 2 minutes, the more dps from the daggers speed will be beaten by the loss of dps from FT, or something like that.
Post by
MegaVolt
I'm not 100% sure on this so correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know:
Max damage is everything on the MH since it procs WF.
Max damage isn't all that important on the OH since FT will scale with weapon speed so any weapon will basically get you the same FT damage.
Only problem is that your SS will hit for a bit less but that should be more then compensated by the much higher dps on your white hits.
You can always just go and hit the dummy for a bit and see for yourself.
Post by
eikyu
Max damage isn't important, it averages out over the duration of the fights, so what's important is the average damage (dps*weapon speed or (min damage + max damage)/2) and as a shaman you want both weapons to hit hard, due to WIndfury, Storm Strike and Lava Lash.
FT indeed scales with weapon speed, so it's more or less the same with any speed of weapon, but still there's Lava Lash and Storm Strike.
Another thing, though, about weapon speed is Maelstrom Weapon, it's on a PPM, meaning it procs lets say about 1.2 per minute (I don't remember the real value, but it'll do as an example).
With 1.2 PPM, Maselstrom would proc a bit more than once a minute, independent on weapon speed, to achieve that the proc chance per hit on a fast weapon is low (because you can fit more hits in the 1 minute frame), on a slow weapon the proc chance per hit is high, to make up for the less hits you get in the 1 minute time frame.
So basically with PPM it procs about the same if you just consider auto-hit, now if you count in our other abilities which can proc it (Windfury, Storm Strike and Lava Lash), they hit about the same amount over a fight regardless the weapon speed, so with a slow weapon there is a higher chance on the hit of any of those to proc Maelstrom.
tl;dr - go for slow on both hands, for a fast weapon to be better than a slow weapon it needs a lot of dps more to compensate, which is for a 200-213 ilevel weapon the dps of a 245 ilevel weapon
Post by
323965
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Post by
tomgc
Yeah, we know that a 1.5 speed weapon would have to have a MASSIVE DPS increase in order to contend with a 2.6 speed weapon... thats nice. What I really want to see however is a comparison of 2.5 -> 2.6 speed weapons, and of 2.6 speed -> 2.7.
Post by
181706
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fulgurah
The simple fact of the matter, Gondo and OP, is that you're gimping yourself in DPS by using a fast OH weapon. If the slow weapon is even CLOSE to DPS to the fast one (I'm talking wide-range here...like 40 DPS or so), I wouldn't even hesitate to use the slow OH. Fast OHs are bad, bad, bad. And Gondo, please for the sake of everything holy don't give us your ancedotal evidence based on a heroic dummy test and this one time when you ran Beasts as Enh. It's not applicable. The reason why we use Sims, regardless if the numbers are slightly flawed, is that they can tell us quickly and very concretely whether something is an upgrade or what our dps COULD be in an ideal world.
The difference between 2.5, 2.6, and 2.7 is smaller, but still pronounced. You still do see some Enh Shamans rocking their first from FL-4 Tower-25 with a 2.7 speed in TotGC25 gear. There aren't too many examples of this, though, in end-game raiding currently.
Post by
Parl
The simple fact of the matter, Gondo and OP, is that you're gimping yourself in DPS by using a fast OH weapon.
That's all there is to it.
Post by
warrigt
The simple fact of the matter, Gondo and OP, is that you're gimping yourself in DPS by using a fast OH weapon.
That's all there is to it.
thanks :)
(thanks for everyones replies. really :) )
I did try a training dummy with the dagger and it seemed to be a dps drop, but clarification is nice.
Post by
eikyu
Yeah, we know that a 1.5 speed weapon would have to have a MASSIVE DPS increase in order to contend with a 2.6 speed weapon... thats nice. What I really want to see however is a comparison of 2.5 -> 2.6 speed weapons, and of 2.6 speed -> 2.7.
Inertius is right about that one.
The 2.7 232 weapons are slightly behind the 2.6 245 weapons especially the ones out of TotC 10man hero, due to the better stat allocation, the ones of TotC 25man normal depend more on your stats wether they are better or not. The Golden Saronite Dragon with its 2.7 239 is well above the 245 weapons, but still behind of the 258 ones.
Post by
soccergenius
People have already explained why, just to add more in-game info: I went from
Sinister Revenge
to
Angry Dread
in my offhand with T7.5 gear and it was about a 100 dps increase despite the loss of weapon dps.
More often than not, the best indicator of which weapon is better is the damage range; the higher the damage range the better. Weapons with a higher weapons damage range are also typically slower than others with lower damage ranges.
Post by
121564
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
181706
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Parl
Sims can be flawed. Ingame tests cant. Much more valuable would be some statistics from ingame testing (whether it be test dummy's or bosses).
While simulators can be flawed, your statement as whole could not be more flawed. Dummy testing is universally reviled as completely and utterly inaccurate when compared to a sim.
Never denied that slower is better when dps values are equal or a little less. Show me some statistics with a break even.
Easily done with a sim. Plus, someone posted a great article above:
http://bighitbox.com/index.php/2009/11/myth-busted-fast-weapon-upgrades/
Conclusion:
The Breakeven Point
Like a good wanna-be Mythbuster, I’m going to take this to it’s logical extreme until I find that break even point. It took some fooling around and lots of LOL’s as my friend and I went back and forth with weapons to find that point where the upgrade to a fast weapon would make sense. And so without further adieu I present to you the fast-is-a-good-upgrade scenario:
When dual-wielding
Stalactite Chopper
upgrading to
Lionhead Slasher (Heroic)
will be a slight upgrade!
If you are dual wielding the rare quality Sons of Hodir weapons and by some miracle of all things crazy in the WoW world you have the opportunity to jump in on a ToGC25 Lord Jaraxxus encounter, then by all means please do upgrade to the Lionhead Slasher in good conscience. All other fast weapon scenarios are side-grades at best, downgrades for most.
Post by
181706
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fulgurah
You're honestly a troll or something man. This is the only explanation for your increasingly terrible posts on this topic.
Fast weapons are bad. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, and bad. If you want solid evidence, see above. I don't need to accept your "two" examples because they are deeply flawed and completely without merit.
Go ahead and test your DPS on actual bosses using a fast OH. And then do it the next week with a slow offhand. It will be crystal clear to you. Otherwise, you will somehow be the smartest person in the Shaman community, as we've all been using slow/slow for so long and you're the only person to EVER think of using slow/fast nowadays.
This is not a debate. Sims show it. Simple logic shows it. Use slow/slow.
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