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Val'kry Twins fight...heal as holy or disc?
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Post by
MegaVolt
Renew is NOT a good play style to get into.
We are not talking about a play style. This is about one particular encounter, Twin Valks. For this encounter it doesn't matter if you want to go into some play style or not. For this encounter you have to fill a few seconds before your CD spells are ready and the most efficient spell to cast in those 3 seconds simply is Renew. PoH will have like 80% overheal (unless the other healers are severely slacking), Renew will be effective healing.
Post by
OscarDivine
Paranoid much?
I believe it was you who first claimed I was "forum stalking" you when you were posting about how "OP" Beacon (bacon) of Light is in your opinion.
FH is
far
inferior for Twins since Renew will have almost no overheal. if I'm not OOMing, what's it matter? It stacks up my serendipity so I can use my PoH.
PoH is also
far
inferior for Twins since there is no burst damage on a group. oh boy... Didn't
Corgan already argue this point for us
?
Post by
318206
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OscarDivine
Panik8 where's ur new sig!
Post by
karlusdavius
the most efficient spell to cast in those 3 seconds simply is Renew.
Explain why it is.
Post by
174266
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
It generally depends on the healer composition of your raid and what particular instance of TotC/TotGC you're running. In normal 25, without a Druid healing (2 Holy Priests, 1 Disc Priest, 1 Resto Shammy, 1 Holy Pally), I spammed PoH most of fight and maintained a *respectable* 8k HPS done during the entire fight (well, according to Recount, anyways...). If I had 80% overhealing, does that mean I could maintain 40k HPS in ideal conditions (without any overhealing...)? I doubt it.
Looking at my Recount, I saw I had 230 hits on PoH, which means at least 46 PoH casts during the fight... I had nearly double healing done of every other healer in the raid. Ok, the other Holy Priest was slacking, ranking below the Disc Priest, but even then, from personal experience, I claim that you can heal that fight with PoH spam...
That being said, I'm still curious with your Renew spam... Maybe it's suited for normal 10 man, like Oscar mentionned, but I'd be curious to see meters on 25 man and/or Heroic versions of it...
Yes, if the other healers are slacking then PoH will be a very good heal on that fight. If the other healers are slacking then there will be lots of people missing ~5k health so that PoH can work its magic. But this is kind of an unusal situation. Since Shamans have been mentioned earlier: If the other healers are slacking then CH will be an extremely effective spell to use. With >5k hp missing on a lot of raid members the initial 7k CH hit will be quite effective.
If the other healers are not slacking from my experience people will most of the time be only missing 1k to 2k health, sometimes 3k - which will make both PoH and CH ineffective heals (mostly overheal). And then are the ones that just ate a wrong orb and those are missing more and will most likely be healing with an instant cast Riptide, Swiftmend or Holy Shock very fast (too fast for PoH at least).
Now lets assume we have a fight in with the other healers are doing their job. You see someone damaged by the aura with 2k hp missing. You cast Renew on him, topping him off instantly. The beauty of the fights mechanic is that until Renew ticks the first time the aura will have ticked too - so on the first Renew tick the guy will be missing some health again and Renew till do effective healing.
I've seen a Druid get over 11k hps on that fight and a holy Priest with Renew spam (in between PoM and CoH of course) with over 9k hps.
PoH is able to provide the same numbers. Renew does not produce higher hps then PoH in general, we discussed that in depth in the last topic. In fact PoH and Renew will both provide pretty similar sustained hps. It's just that in this particular encounter the fight mechanics, the small incremental but constistent type of damage, is a perfect fit for the nature of HoTs. They will tick exactly as the aura does damage, resulting in extremely effective healing.
I believe it was you who first claimed I was "forum stalking" you when you were posting about how "OP" Beacon (bacon) of Light is in your opinion.
And you did. You just trolled that topic because you don't like me, adding nothing substancial to it whatsoever. You just kept insulting me. In other words: You are a forum stalker.
I on the other hand did not attack you personally in any way here. I just pointed out a very valid healing strategy for the fight. My posts were right on topic.
Are you really not capable of understanding the difference between trolling and contributing?
if I'm not OOMing, what's it matter? It stacks up my serendipity so I can use my PoH.
Who said anything about OOMing? Each FH cast will heal for ~7k less then a Renew cast. So each time you stack up Serendipity you lose 7k total healing done. So compared to Renew spam your hasted PoH is already 21k in the negative when you start casting because you had to use a sucky spell to make it fast. Seriously, its adding numbers. You should be able to know that since primary school.
Post by
karlusdavius
Who said anything about OOMing? Each FH cast will heal for ~7k less then a Renew cast. So each time you stack up Serendipity you lose 7k total healing done. So compared to Renew spam your hasted PoH is already 21k in the negative when you start casting because you had to use a sucky spell to make it fast. Seriously, its adding numbers. You should be able to know that since primary school.
Thats where you fail. In a perfect world, casting renew and allowing it to tick for everything it has would be great. But it just doesn't happen like that. I'd rather have a Flash Heal hit the guy up for 3-4k right away and have 3 - 4k overheal, because overhealing DOESN'T MATTER.
Renew ticks get sniped. Therefore, its a waste of mana and time.
Post by
MegaVolt
Thats where you fail. In a perfect world, casting renew and allowing it to tick for everything it has would be great. But it just doesn't happen like that. I'd rather have a Flash Heal hit the guy up for 3-4k right away and have 3 - 4k overheal, because overhealing DOESN'T MATTER.
Renew ticks get sniped. Therefore, its a waste of mana and time.
We are talking about
Twin Valks
!11111111111111111111oneoneoneoneoneeleveleleveleleveneleven
The argument about sniping heals is less-then-smart to begin with (Druids topping the healing meters are proof of that) but - I'm sorry that I have to say it so bluntly - bringing up snipe heals on Twin Valks (and this is what we are talking about here after all) is just plain stupid. The whole raid is taking consistent slow damage. It doesn't matter if someone is sniping your heal, a second later that guy who has Renew still ticking on him will have lost hp again and Renew ill do effective healing.
And the whole thing about overhealing (now I get it why Oscar said he isn't OOMing):
I didn't mention overheal because of OOMing or because it is bad in general or something. The fact of the matter is: Overhealing will reduce your throughput. If you have the choice between two spells, both healing for a maximum theoretical 15k hps, one having 50% overheal and one having 20% overheal - then you will in the end have either 7.5k hps or 12k hps. Chosing 12k is obvious, right?
In a fight like Twin Valks what you want to do is maximize your sustained hps to counter the raid wide aura damage. This is done by using spells that have a high amount of healing per time spent casting and by making sure that those spells do in fact heal and not overheal. This argument against overhealing has nothing to do with OOMing. In this case overheal does matter quite a bit since overheal equals low throughput.
Post by
OscarDivine
Are you really not capable of understanding the difference between trolling and contributing?
Did you READ what you were saying? That wasn't a contribution. The paladins that have been writing in there for YEARS were trying to get you banned by the admins but they were told that you cannot ban someone for not comprehending logic? Read below:
I talked over this thread with the Wowhead staff, and the short answer is that they cannot punish someone for being ignorant or being incoherent.
MegaVolt clearly does not understand what you're telling him for the past four pages so stop here.
Clearly, your inability to see things any way differently than what you've cemented into your head spreads across multiple forums.
Who said anything about OOMing?
FH is far inferior for Twins since Renew will have almost no overheal.
In a sense, you did. Overheals don't matter unless you're OOMing.
Post by
dhampir1989
Clearly, your inability to see things any way differently than what you've cemented into your head spreads across multiple forums.
Or its a troll.
Which Im leaning towards more and more.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
dhampir1989
Overhealing will reduce your throughput.
No it won't. Throughput is not HPS. Throughput is Healing Done. The only time it is ever relevant to look at Overhealing is when you're OOMing. Fact.
I sense our friend played a DPS then tried to heal the way a *bad* DPSer thinks.
Post by
Ljillikoard
hehe i seem to read here that if everybody seems a bit low it has to be the healers that are slacking? what about people taking damage from orbs? or transition to other shields = being on the run = a few s of less intense healing and everything could end up trashed...
renew is a great spell in this fight, i always cast on myself and tanks, on myself for the simple reason so i dont have to watch my own health bar that often and if u die as a healer in this fight...
if ranged and melee are grouped up like it should be and healers stand in middle PoH is a killer heal for twins next to the mandatory PoM en CoH on every cd. free FH and some FH during a less chaotic time can help to get those serendipity stacks up for a needed GH or so later on in the fight (last night finished 25 reg with 13 ppl -2healers left praying it would be a vortex and not a shield for the last switch over :-) i realy had to give those tanks big healz near the end... so frustrating to see healers die after u just started the fight, and seeing all those health bars go down and know ur pumping everything out u can and still it isnt enough).
but man i love this fight ! :-)
Post by
Paolo
Oscar, that was a tremendous find. Unfortunately, many of us continue to rebut his posts, not for his benefit (his ears are shut) but for the benefit of others who may be swayed by long, thickly-worded posts.
Also, where's the rhyme?
Post by
MegaVolt
What do Paladins have to do with this? I make a valid contribution. I posted some (actually quite basic) math. All you did was attack and insult me. And I stand by what I said on the Paladin forums: BoL is overpowered. Why do you think people here did put Paladins on top of the list for tank healing? I find it sad that the Paladin forums response to someone calling the OPness of BoL out is to try to get him banned. But this is not relevant here.
You should realize now why I'm calling you a forum stalker: No matter where I post you try to troll me and you dig up other troll posts and generally try to attack me personally instead of responding to my arguments. You should be a politician.
@Paolo: I had the impression that you are actually a pretty smart guy. I expected you to not fall for Oscars personal attacks and actually look at the argument at hand. Sad to see I was wrong.
No it won't. Throughput is not HPS. Throughput is Healing Done.
And if your heals overheal 50% of the time then your healing done is 50% lower then its theoretical maximum. Simple as that.
In a sense, you did. Overheals don't matter unless you're OOMing.
This is silly. How can a sane person not see that?
You want a maximum amount of throughput, meaning a maximum amount of healing done.
Healing done means effective healing, not overheal.
How do you maximize your total healing done?
There are two things to consider:
1. Cast a spell that does high amount of overall healing for a short amount of time spent casting.
2. Make sure that your spells heal as much as possible (contributing to healing done) instead of overheal (not contribute to healing done).
Both are important. The two spells that have the hightest amount of healing done per time spent casting for a Priest (other then PoM and CoH which are on a cooldown) are Renew and PoH. Both actually have a pretty similar healing output per time spent casting which makes them equally good in a situation in which you have 0 overheal (which of course is only theoretical).
Now factor in overheal: Every percent overhealed will effectively reduce your healing done per time spent casting because a part of your heals stop contributing to you total healing done. So in order to maximize healing done you have to minimize overheal.
In many fights this means using PoH over Renew. Stars on Algalon for example, your Renew will only tick once or twice and be mostly overheal while PoH will produce lots of effective healing.
But Twin Valks is different. There it is the other way around, there Renew will produce lots of effective healing while PoH will mostly overheal.
What I'm saying here is certainly no rocket science. This is all basic and extremely simple. I am amazed that people have such a giant hate for Renew that they will disagree with such basic facts.
Or lets look at it from another angle:
You are saying overheal is totally irrelevant and never matters unless you OOM. Ok then, how about I just spam FH all day long on a guy with full health. No effective healing but lots of overheal. Is that good? No of course not! Overhealing sucks, healers have to use their spells in such a way that they do not overheal much.
If you have two targets, one with 8k missing hp and one with 1k missing hp you heal the 8k guy first. You minimize your overheal.
That doesn't mean that overheal is always bad. If there is not enough damage going around then overheal does no harm. If there is only the guy with 1k hp missing THEN you heal him and just don't worry about overheal. THEN overheal doesn't matter. This is where all this "overheal doesn't matter" stuff initially comes from and this is where it is right. But stop blindly quoting stuff that does not apply to the situation we are currently talking about (e.g. a fight with massive raid wide damage). This is like trying to solve quantum mechanics with Newtons equations of motion, it just doesn't work. Newtons equations are right when applied to the problem which they are actually meant to solve. The fact that they don't work for quantum mechanics doesn't make Newtons equations bad. Same for this whole "overheal doesn't matter" thingy: If you are looking at the healing meter after a fight then the overheal section really doesn't matter unless someone went oom. But looking at the overheal section after a fight is something fundamentally different from theorycrafting maximum potential hps for spells. Quantum mechanics and Newtons equations.
Or again in other words:
For the arguments sake let's assume we are only allowed to cast one spell, FH. There is always someone with damage so we spam it non stop. We spend every single second of the fight casting. No burst - lull - burst which gives us time to prepare spells or stuff like that. Just plain spam.
So we have a set amount of maximum theoretical healing done which is given by the hps of FH. The goal is to maximize our healing done. How do we do that? Obviously by minimizing our overheal. That's why we target people that are lower on health first. Maximizing healing done and minimizing overheal are the same in this case.
Now back to Twin Valks: We don't have just one spell there. We have PoM and CoH on cooldown and then either PoH or Renew which both have pretty much the same maximum theoretical hps. The theoretical maximum is set in stone by the values that those spells can produce for us and since we are continuously spamming there is nothing whatsoever for us to do to change that.
The only thing we can influence is how much of that maximum theoretical hps will be effective healing and how much of it will be overheal.
This is a very valid argument. I explained it in great, great detail in three different ways now. It is something that is so blatantly obvious that it boggles my mind how anyone can disagree with it. So if you disagree with it please give some kind of
argument
, give reason, give logic. Just saying "But you suck! Go away!" is really not the proper way to respond.
Post by
karlusdavius
I quit. Your an idiot. We have to respond in order to stop people Reading your Miss guided Ideals. Stick to Druid healing please. Your, pretty obviously, not welcome here anymore!
Post by
dhampir1989
You want a maximum amount of throughput, meaning a maximum amount of healing done.
Healing done means effective healing, not overheal.
I cried at the idiocy of this, and Ive been healing for... a week.
Post by
318206
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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