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Defense Rating vs Other
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Post by
bdeboare
Hey everyone,
I'm currently leveling a Warrior which I'd like to tank with at 80. Because I'm such a freak I always analyze everything even before I have reached my first few levels. I didn't know if I was going Tauren or Troll so I made both and will now level them to 20 first as is suggested everywhere on the Internet when you don't know what to pick.
But this is not what this topic is about. I'd like to have a discussion about Defense Rating and other statistics such as Parry or Dodge Rating. I've taken a quick look at a calculator on this site:
http://www.tankingtips.com/tanking-formulas
.
When I enter 20 in every stat I want to compare: Defense, Parry, Dodge; the calculator gives me these numbers:
20 Defense Rating: 4 Defense Skill; 0.49% Avoidance, 0.16% Crit Reduction
20 Parry Rating: 0.44% Parry
20 Dodge Rating: 0.44% Dodge
Now, this got me wondering, as I've read somewhere, I think on WoWWiki that Defense Rating also increases chance to block on Warriors and Paladins. Would it actually be better to stack Defense Rating (Gems, Enchants, ...) even after the minimum?
I'd like to hear some thoughts on this,
bdeboare
Post by
blademeld
Defense stacking for dodge is what you can do if you want to reach the passive unhittability. However, block is mitigation and not avoidance, and blocked hits are much less significant than dodged attacks in raids, which is why people prefer avoidance over block.
Also, miss suffers a great deal of dminishing returns.
Post by
bdeboare
Defense stacking for dodge is what you can do if you want to reach the passive unhittability. However, block is mitigation and not avoidance, and blocked hits are much less significant than dodged attacks in raids, which is why people prefer avoidance over block.
Also, miss suffers a great deal of dminishing returns.
I realize blocking a hit reduces damage and is mitigation,
however Defense, according to
http://www.wowwiki.com/Defense
, increases Block
Chance
, which only happens after a Dodge, Parry or Miss; so after having a chance of totally avoiding a hit, Defense would also help with having an increased chance of blocking part of it after not avoiding it.
Can you come to a conclusion whether Defense Rating outweighs Parry or Dodge? Because according to that calculator it does. I'm just unsure about this because it seems unreal,
why would 20 Parry rating give less Parry (0.44%) versus 20 Defense Rating which adds 0.49% Miss, Parry, Dodge (Avoidance according to the calculator) and Block (according to WoWWiki).
I'm quite confused about this subject and would like some light shed on it.
Post by
blademeld
Also, miss suffers a great deal of dminishing returns.
Post by
bdeboare
If you would have atleast taken the time to view my new post, you wouldn't quote yourself again to reply. Basically what I'm asking here in short is:
why does 20 Defense Rating give 0.49% Miss, Parry, Dodge, Block while
20 Parry/Dodge Rating only adds 0.44% Parry or Dodge?
Same amount of points on a gem for a different stat, yet one has an increased effect and works for 4 stats instead of just one. That's why I'm asking if there's some kind of mistake in this calculator or what the issue is here. Even if Miss suffers from diminishing returns... Defense also increases Parry and Dodge.
Post by
blademeld
First of all, you have wrong math, 20 defense rating gives you 0.65% Miss/Dodge/Parry, not 0.49%
I don't think you understood me, so let me give you an example:
At 540 defense and 35% dodge and 25% parry before diminishing returns, the following will happen after diminishing returns:
20 defense gives you: ~0.1 dodge, ~0.095 parry, ~0.085 miss, and 0.163 block for a total of ~0.28% avoidance and 0.163 block
20 dodge rating gives you: 0.37% avoidance
As you can see, Miss suffers a large proportion of diminished returns, and as I was saying, block doesn't count as avoidance.
Post by
bdeboare
Hey thanks,
I've been reading up on diminishing returns on these stats and I now understand what they imply.
20 defense rating gives you 0.65% Miss/Dodge/Parry
Ok, that clears stuff up, nice to have the accurate number.
At 540 defense and 35% dodge and 25% parry before diminishing returns, the following will happen after diminishing returns:
20 defense gives you: ~0.1 dodge, ~0.095 parry, ~0.085 miss, and 0.163 block for a total of ~0.28% avoidance and 0.163 block
20 dodge rating gives you: 0.37% avoidance
As you can see, Miss suffers a large proportion of diminished returns, and as I was saying, block doesn't count as avoidance.
You say in your post 20 Dodge Rating gives you 0.37% Avoidance, according to WoWWiki Avoidance also implies miss and parry. Is this a mistake you made, I can't find anything about Dodge Rating other than it just increases dodge %.
So if I reach the Defense minimum: 540, it would be better to stack Dodge because it suffers less from diminishing returns? When exactly do these diminishing returns kick in? I can't find any info on that on WoWWiki.
I'm trying to find a good calculator but have scrolled down a few pages of Google, possibly with the wrong keywords.
Post by
blademeld
You say in your post 20 Dodge Rating gives you 0.37% Avoidance, according to WoWWiki Avoidance also implies miss and parry. Is this a mistake you made, I can't find anything about Dodge Rating other than it just increases dodge %.
1 dodge + 0 parry + 0 miss = 1 avoidance
0 dodgel + 1 parry + 0 miss = 1 avoidance
0 dodgel + 0 parry + 1 miss = 1 avoidance
1 dodgel + 1 parry + 0 miss = 2 avoidance
And so on.
So if I reach the Defense minimum: 540, it would be better to stack Dodge because it suffers less from diminishing returns?
Dodge will give the most avoidance as long as you keep above the 1.875 dodge to parry ratio.
Defense will give you most avoidance and mitigation all the time, and has been even in tBC.
When exactly do these diminishing returns kick in?
Diminishing returns are
always
active.
You have 5% base dodge, 5% base parry and 5% base miss; alongside 5% dodge from talents (warriors, paladins and death knights) and 5% parry from talents (warriors and paladins).
Anything above those bases suffer from diminishing returns, so if your character sheet has 35% dodge, than 25% of that suffers diminishing returns.
I'm trying to find a good calculator but have scrolled down a few pages of Google, possibly with the wrong keywords.
Real Dodge % = Base Dodge % + 1/(0.011347 + (.9560/(Character Sheet Dodge % - Base Dodge%)))
Real Parry % = Base Parry % + 1/(0.021275 + (.9560/(Character Sheet Parry % - Base Parry %)))
Post by
bdeboare
Ah cool, thanks, I moved to a different server recently and rolled a Night Elf Warrior... I made this profile with the Wowhead Profiler, it kinda seems to good to be true (but could be because the gear is top notch) so I'll paste a link here.
http://www.wowhead.com/?profile=17982869
Maybe you can check it out, I'm particulary worried that the Dodge isn't going to be that high. Anyway, thanks for clearing most stuff up already.
Post by
Porcell
First of all, you have wrong math, 20 defense rating gives you 0.65% Miss/Dodge/Parry, not 0.49%
Not sure where you are getting that 0.65% number. 20 defense rating @ 4.92 per skill is 4.065 defense skill. Each defense skill gives 0.04 to miss/dodge/parry/block, so that's 0.163% to each or 0.488% total avoidance.
Also, the real answer comes down to diminishing returns. Here's some calculations, totally excluding base % and talents:
689 Defense Rating (crit immune), 600 Dodge Rating, 200 Parry Rating:
Dodge Before DR 19.379
Dodge After DR 16.480
Parry Before DR 10.020
Parry After DR 8.570
Miss Before DR 5.600
Miss After DR 4.288
Add +20 Defense = Dodge: 19.539(16.591), Parry: 10.180(8.682), Miss: 5.760(4.377) for a total of 0.480 pre DR and 0.312 after DR
Add +20 Dodge = Dodge: 19.821(16.784) for a total of 0.442 pre DR and 0.304 after DR
Add +20 Parry = Parry: 10.462(8.877) for a total of 0.442 pre DR and 0.307 after DR
So for someone at exactly 540 Defense Skill, with 600 dodge rating and 200 parry rating from gear, 20 Def is 0.312% avoidance, 20 Parry is 0.307% avoidance, and 20 Dodge is 0.304% avoidance.
Calculations again using
my character
, which is high end 245+ gear:
889 Defense Rating (180 extra defense skill), 713 Dodge Rating, 278 Parry Rating:
Dodge Before DR 23.476
Dodge After DR 19.205
Parry Before DR 13.344
Parry After DR 10.762
Miss Before DR 7.200
Miss After DR 5.121
Add +20 Defense = Dodge: 23.636(19.307), Parry: 13.504(10.861), Miss: 7.360(5.198) for a total of 0.480 pre DR and 0.278 after DR
Add +20 Dodge = Dodge: 23.918(19.487) for a total of 0.442 pre DR and 0.282 after DR
Add +20 Parry = Parry: 13.786(11.035) for a total of 0.442 pre DR and 0.273 after DR
So in current near top of the line gear, adding 20 Dodge is 0.282% avoidance, 20 Defense is 0.278% avoidance, and 20 Parry is 0.273% avoidance.
So the conclusion? With low levels of Defense Rating (i.e. before you start hitting the Miss DR really really hard), Defense Rating will give slightly more avoidance than Dodge/Parry rating. With high amounts of Defense Rating, Dodge/Parry rating will take the lead. At that point, Dodge will be better than Parry if the (character_sheet_dodge-10%)/(character_sheet_parry-10%) = 1.88 or less. If it's greater than 1.88, then Parry will give you more avoidance.
All that said, shield using classes should always keep in mind the extra benefit of the Shield Block chance that Defense gives. There's also the fact that 1% miss is the best kind of avoidance (since you can be missed while stunned or back is turned), then next is 1% Parry (since when you parry you get a hasted swing), and third is 1% Dodge. All things considered, 1% miss is better than 1% parry, which is better than 1% dodge.
Post by
blademeld
First of all, you have wrong math, 20 defense rating gives you 0.65% Miss/Dodge/Parry, not 0.49%
Not sure where you are getting that 0.65% number. 20 defense rating @ 4.92 per skill is 4.065 defense skill. Each defense skill gives 0.04 to miss/dodge/parry/block, so that's 0.163% to each or 0.488% total avoidance.
I missed the word "block"
You can piece that together if you look at the post I was replying to.
Post by
Quest
So the conclusion?
With low levels of Defense Rating (i.e. before you start hitting the Miss DR really really hard), Defense Rating will give slightly more avoidance than Dodge/Parry rating.
With high amounts of Defense Rating, Dodge/Parry rating will take the lead. At that point, Dodge will be better than Parry if the (character_sheet_dodge-10%)/(character_sheet_parry-10%) = 1.88 or less. If it's greater than 1.88, then Parry will give you more avoidance.
Def rating does not give more
avoidance
than dodge/parry at 689. The jumpoint for def rating after 689 is 728. All in all its not worth stacking def past 689 due mostly to gear limitations.
Theck
As you can see there, (youll have to average it def) after 689 dodge is clearly over the median here. Parry is even over it for a bit.
All that said, shield using classes should always keep in mind the extra benefit of the Shield Block chance that Defense gives. There's also the fact that 1% miss is the best kind of avoidance (since you can be missed while stunned or back is turned), then next is 1% Parry (since when you parry you get a hasted swing), and third is 1% Dodge. All things considered, 1% miss is better than 1% parry, which is better than 1% dodge.
If you put parry in there at all, I assume you're assuming you're fighting bosses that aren't parry hasted, and in that case parry would be much better than miss, as it is in effect a miss + free damage.
Post by
VoidTsukaima
Lets not forget -chance to be hit affects spells aswell.
Post by
Porcell
Lets not forget -chance to be hit affects spells aswell.
Nice necro with bad info.
Defense does not affect spells.
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