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The Fate of the Horde
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Post by
315721
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Septimus
Oh and this will get an argument.... I almost feel sorry for you. But you have brought it upon yourself.... Just wait till the regulars wake up.
Post by
Patty
Well actually, Silvermoon and Undercity's Mages combined at least match Alliance Mages, I would say. Silvermoon, along with Ironforge, is the oldest City left. Think of all of the Magic books and libraries that they recovered from the Scourge!
Especially considering Dalaran's shift to neutral, the Alliance probably has less Mages than you would think.
Goblins and Gnomes are both great engineers, I think Goblins will even the playing field a little bit.
Also, just because the Church of the Light is based in Stormwind, it is still a neutral organisation. The Priests would probably not fight as well, seeing as they were butchered in the First War.
Most of the Alliance's druids are asleep, I don't think that is really a crucial factor, as the Cenarion Circle is also neutral.
The Horde have more Warlocks, which is quite significant.
TL;DR - I think if they went into Open War, the Alliance and Horde would both suffer heavy losses, and there wouldn't be a clear winner. The Alliance has more people I think, but both factions have advantages and disadantages.
Post by
315721
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
R1TeR
1.Even tho the blood elfs and forsaken and now the goblins joined the horde for survival they would never leave or betray the horde for just that reason.
2.The alliance will not "decimate" the horde
Now with the goblins joining the horde thier tech just skyrocketed, though the alliance still have the advantage there its not as big as it once was.
To me it doesent really matter how many mages and such they have, a war is won on the frontlines
The new Horde are no longer the bloodthristy savages they used to be. They are capable of doing battleplans and carrying them out well
3.Just cuse they live in huts and stuff doesent make them primitives they still use variuos metals for thier armor and wepons.I also think if they did go to war it would end up of years and years of just drawn out battles nether side able to really win a majority of the time. (now ORG is being reinforced with some type of metal)
thats just a small argument just wait till the lore peps wake up
Post by
Zenanor
I second Septimus
You better be ready for when US wakes up.
back to OP.
Yeah the Horde does have their flaws but so has the Alliance. Night elves still doesn't like arcane magic and how can you have an Alliance without co-op?
Post by
315721
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
R1TeR
Just cause Garrosh is warchief doesnt mean that all of the horde are gonna go the same way.Gnomes are not that surperior in tech then the goblins and im pretty sure that the can make planes and blimps and stuff easy.
Post by
HiVolt
Oh and this will get an argument.... I almost feel sorry for you. But you have brought it upon yourself.... Just wait till the regulars wake up.
Tactical thinker is heer nao.
1. Internal conflict
While orcs, tauren and trolls are all pals, blood elves and forsaken are in there for survival and to get back at the alliance. It's not a great basis for an alliance. In cataclysm, goblins join the horde for survival purposes - note the name of their faction, Bilgewater Cartel. By this logic, you're going on the assumption that there is no internal conflict within the Alliance as well, when there is. The Alliance is essentially split into two different Alliances, the Eastern (Stormwind/Ironforge/Aerie Peak/Gilneas) and the Western (Theramore/Darnassus/The Exodar). These two inner-factions hold completely different philosophies compared to one another, one geared more toward non-cooperation and hostility with the Horde, the other geared more toward mutual existence with them.
2. External conflict
I think that lorewise, in an all out conflict, the alliance would decimate the horde:
I'll touch on your reasoning before I comment on this.
They have more advanced technology. (historically biplane>blimp)
As R1TeR said, with the addition of Goblin technology, the Horde gains a huge boost in technological capability. If the Alliance didn't have the Gnomes, they'd be in essentially the same position. Remember in WC1, (Humans vs. Orcs) the tech was essentially equal on both sides.
They have more mages, priests, druids (lorewise).
As Patty said, the mages of Silvermoon and the Undercity alone would likely equal that of the Alliance, and that's not counting the amount of Troll and (soon to be) Orc mages as well. As far as priests and druids go, I think you're right in that aspect. However, you're failing to take the amount of Shamans in the Horde into account, far more than the Alliance.
They have a generally more versatile battleplan. Orcs/tauren/trolls, are basically interchangeable. Not so. You're making it seem like there is no diversity among the ranks in the Horde army, which there is. There are a myriad of different positions, from siege to cavalry to infantry to support, just like the Alliance. Tactically speaking, there is no conceivable difference between the factions as far as different types of troops and command go.
3. Choice
While a vague point, given a choice, the alliance seems vastly more pleasant than the horde. I mean, considering that orcs/tauren/trolls all live in tents and wood huts, in comparison with exodar, Ironforge, Stormwind, even darnassus, they are primitives. While silvermoon is nice, it was built while the high elves were alliance, and undercity is the work of the lich king. Your first point in that the Alliance is more "pretty" holds no bearing over who would win a battle. Take the Visigoths, the Gauls, the Vikings, the Huns... hell, pretty much any "Barbarian" culture vs. Rome as an example of the fallacy of the argument.
Now, back to the point of the Alliance decimating the Horde lorewise. Both sides have suffered a loss of a major war to the other side. There is no precedent to say that the Alliance would definitely win against the Horde as it is now, nor is there precedent to say the opposite. As Patty said, a full-blown war between the Alliance and the Horde would result in mass casualties for both sides, and conclude in a stalemate.
I want an argument!
I can haz rebuttal?
BTW, OP, thanks for making this thread. We've been lacking a good debate on this forum lately.
Post by
R1TeR
he told you lol
I forget that now the guards in the Undercity are being replaced with Orcs ones so the Forsakens actions are now on watch
Post by
BuryYourDead
Not to mention, if Garrosh and Varian start a war, then its essentially "Orcs vs Humans" again.
Post by
HiVolt
Not to mention, if Garrosh and Varian start a war, then its essentially "Orcs vs Humans" again.
Actually that would depend on the position Garrosh holds when he declares war. If he has the title of "Warchief" then the rest of the Horde is oath-bound to follow his command, whereas the Alliance does not bow to King Varian, so it very well could be the Humans alone against the entirety of the Horde. That however, is unlikely, as the Dwarves and Gnomes(by proxy of the Dwarves) would feel obligated to aid the Humans, much like they did in the Second War.
When someone is brought into the Horde, they swear fealty to the Warchief. Breaking that fealty is treason. The Alliance does not have any similar law.
Think of the Horde like a noble autocracy, a single body under a single ruler, whereas the Alliance is more like a- and I can't believe I'm using this terminology, "Coalition of the Willing".
Post by
R1TeR
I think that works better for the Horde though
In the Horde there is one head leader "Warchief" and no one disagrees
With the Alliance you have several leaders each gonna do there own thing
Post by
315721
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
R1TeR
Garrosh might be a "*!@#$%bag but he knows how to fight and lead people in battle and thats a +
Post by
HiVolt
@HIV0LT4G3 I appreciate your point about shamans, however lorewise, Orc and troll shamans are mainly dmg dealers, putting the horde at a complete loss for healers (except tauren). This is an assumption. There is a broad definition of Shaman. Witch Doctors, Shadow Hunters, Spirit Walkers, Spirit Champions. Also, if Shaman were unable to heal lorewise, then there would be no reason that they would be able to do so in the game. What goes on in the game is cold hard fact-lore. Even if the game retcons itself, the most updated version of the game is the lore.
While there are two alliance factions, they are not in conflict, in the sense that one (West) does defer to the other (West). But the split of ideals among the Horde does not mean that the sides within are in conflict with one another. There may be a difference of reasons for being a part of the Horde, but that does not mean that they would soon go to war or split from one another.
Political tension among the Alliance, however, could lead to it's own undoing due to the fact that there is no single ruler among the Alliance, thus, there is no single goal for the whole of the Alliance. The will of the Warchief is the will of the Horde as a whole, as I said in an above post.
Post by
taurenmoo812
You know I don't have time to comment on this atm, but I'll keep this short.
Both sides are equal now in terms of technology, difference of opinion and prowess. The alliance is not more powerful then the horde and any alliance fop who thinks his faction will win out in this is one sided in any opinion.
I might be a dedicated horde fan, but I'm not foolish enough to go saying 'omg horde will pwn allys and we will win' rubbish. You can throw in as many points as you want, but you will find those points are mirrors to the other sides faction, like it or not.
Post by
Skreeran
There are many shaman healers. Every orc shaman knows how to heal in the books, and many of them focus on it. Shadow hunters had healing wave, spirit walkers has a resurrection... Shaman are fine healers.
Also, to start a different argument: The Horde kicked the Alliance's ass in the First and Second Wars. The Alliance has more races now, but the Horde does too... Not to mention the fact that Thrall can single-handedly destroy and entire city if the elements agree with his purpose.
Then there's the fact that Theramore and the Exodar would almost certainly abstain from violence.
And lastly... the killing blow...
We have Saurfang.
Post by
BuryYourDead
We have Saurfang.
Hogger lives in Elwynn. Saurfang comes anywhere near his home then....yea, it's a stalemate.
Post by
Patty
Everyone knows Hogger is Saurfang's level 11 alt.
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