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The Fate of the Horde
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Post by
Rankkor
I'd have to go with delterius on this one, goblin tech is rouglly the same as gnomish one.
we haven't seen a major goblin outpost so far, cataclyms will show us their town of kezan and the wonderous undermine, a town that rivals (maybe surpases) gnomergan.
need I remind you that both the demon-soul and deathwing's armor were made by goblins? that's a testament of how strong their inventions are.
wich are more spread across azeroth? goblin zepelins? or gnomish flight machines?
one race made a small flight vessel, the otherone made a large flight vessel.
comparing gnomes with goblins and trying to find a superior one is like the point of this topic wich is to prove wich side would crush the other one alliance or horde.
both sides are equal.
the alliance's strengths are offset by the horde's strenghts, neither side has a clear upper-cut advantage that would cripple the other one.
whereas one side has more paladins, the other one as more shamans.
wereas one side has more numbers, the other one has more strength to make up for those numbers.
they are so balanced that on an open war no side would swiftly win over the other one, the conflict would drag itself along for years and years, making the death-toll HUGE, not only for both sides, but for any neutral side caught in the middle.
hence the reason why so many wise leaders (like jaina and thrall) wanna make a durable lasting peace.
Post by
taurenmoo812
hence the reason why so many wise leaders (like jaina and thrall) wanna make a durable lasting peace.
Exactly.
Though every little attila the hun here would sooner have stupid leaders who want to fight pointless repeated battles with no clear end, rather then intelligent leaders who see beyond such conflicts.
Post by
Skreeran
Goblins invented infra-green cloaking technology... :P
But yeah, the point is the bottom line, here:
they are so balanced that on an open war no side would swiftly win over the other one, the conflict would drag itself along for years and years, making the death-toll HUGE, not only for both sides, but for any neutral side caught in the middle.Very, very true. Varian and Garrosh act like this will be a quick and easy for the Alliance/Horde, like brushing off a pest, and that's why they're willing to start a war during the war with the Scourge/Blue Dragonflight/Yogg-Saron/Deathwing.
But really it'll accomplish no more than throwing thousands and thousands of soldiers at eachother to be killed. Reminds me of World War I.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
A good Alliance leader is someone who is willing to fight for thier people.So in that frame of mind.... Garrosh is a good alliance leader? As to his brain, he's fighting for his people; he truly believes the pink-skinned people are a threat.
Don't get me wrong, Garrosh is still a #$%^&*, but a comment like that works both ways.
Post by
Zenanor
Don't get me wrong, Garrosh is still a #$%^&*, but a comment like that works both ways.
But it doesn't.
Garrosh wants war because he heard storys about the first and Second wars, Varian wants war because he was
prevoked
captured and used as entertainment by the horde.
fix'ed
But to me both I think Garrosh and Varian should be put in a room together. The come back in a week and clean up the mess.
Post by
Adamsm
But Varian is provoking Garrosh...... it's a loop. The war swings both ways; Garrosh attacked at the Broken Front because he heard Varian declare war at Undercity. In Garrosh's eyes, he protecting his people with a first strike to try to break the Alliance's back.
Varian is pushing a war because of the Wrathgate, even though the New Horde as whole had nothing to do with that, it was the rogue members of the Forsaken.
Nothing is black or white; if you make a broad stroke comment like that, it can be used for both sides.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
A good Alliance leader in my eyes is somene who is willing to defend their own people, but understands that Thrall is trying to do the exact same thing for his people.
A good Alliance leader in my eyes understands that both the Alliance and Horde are trying to survive in a world where the Scourge, the Burning Legion, the Old Gods, and dozens of other threats all try to wipe them out.
A good Alliance leader in my eyes is someone who won't send thousands of their own people to their deaths to wipe out another group of people who have just as much a right to life as themselves.
A good Alliance leader in my eyes is someone who is willing to look past the past and see that the Horde is not the warmongering juggernaut that it once was and is willing to go out of their way to make peace work for the greater good of the world.
Post by
Adamsm
Imagine your suprise the see the Warchief of the New Horde wearing the same armor as the same warchiefs who destroyed Stormwind and killed Lothar.Only got half of that right; Blackhand never wore Doomhammer's armour. Edit here; Varian never saw Doomhammer so how would he know that the armour Thrall is wearing belonged to the 2nd Warcheif?
It does not work that way.
Varian could either let the Horde keep on relently attacking his troops, or have his troops fight back at a threat that won't stop until they are all dead.
I can understand Garrosh, but Thrall treats Sylvanas to much like an ally.That's Blizzards fault, and the elite Horde guard are now in the Undercity watching over the Forsaken so Thrall has done something about them. As for the 'relentless' attacks... I think you used the wrong word there; relentless means unending and constant, and no where is the Horde and the Alliance engaged in any conflict like that. And if there is a threat like that... that would be the Scourge over the New Horde.
You just proved my point. You want him to just completly ignore the threats that the Horde poses.
Like Metzen said at Blizzcon, Varian will see the treats that the Horde still poses today. That right there is proof that Varian is the one defending.How can it be defending when he restarted the War at Undercity? Up till his return, the Horde and Alliance were in an uneasy truce not open warfare.
Whats there to look past?
Its kind of hard to belive that when there has been absolutly zero evidence leading to it.As I said in the line above; for 4-5 years, an uneasy cease fire between Horde and Alliance, yes there were skirmishes between, and yes the Forsaken were building the Blight, but they focused on the more important threats then restarting a war that had been over for 2 decades.
Post by
Skreeran
Varian could either let the Horde keep on relently attacking his troops, or have his troops fight back at a threat that won't stop until they are all dead.It doesn't seem to me that the Horde is relentlessly attacking the Alliance. Not at all, actually.
I can understand Garrosh, but Thrall treats Sylvanas to much like an ally.Well, Sylvanas is an ally. She's a valuable asset against the Lich King, and holds most of the Horde's territory in the Eastern Kingdoms.
Yes... and one of those threats trying to wipe out the Alliance is the Forsaken. And then there is the rest of the Horde not giving a care.The Wrathgate is the only instance that I can think of where any Forsaken have tried to actively wipe out Alliance.
You just proved my point. You want him to just completly ignore the threats that the Horde poses.I want him to see that the Horde is not the oly threat, or even the biggest.
And he's a threat to innocents on the Horde side as well, but he refuses to even treat orcs like people.
Like Metzen said at Blizzcon, Varian will see the treats that the Horde still poses today. That right there is proof that Varian is the one defending.Going on the offensive is not defending.
Whats there to look past?The First War, the Second War? The fact that they were fought by orcs.
Its kind of hard to belive that when there has been absolutly zero evidence leading to it.Huh?
Imagine your suprise the see the Warchief of the New Horde wearing the same armor as the same warchiefs who destroyed Stormwind and killed Lothar.And many Southerners respect and display the Confederate flag. Obviously there must be war.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Would you go to war and stop having to lose troops and resources to "peace", or would you be able to forgive something as vile as plague being used on children?If the Blight had been used on children I could see that... but it wasn't. Not that using it on adults were much better but still.
Thats kind of a stretch to say there has been no attacks going on, there is hardly a quest in the eastern kingdoms that does not innvolve "Go ^&*! up the Alliance in every single way you can"I thought you never played Horde?
And as I said on the line above, Thrall is pretty much the only person who still wants to be at peace, which I respect, but the rest of the Horde is hungry for Alliance blood.Tauren don't. Blood Elves just want to be left alone. The Trolls follow the orcs, but seeing as their home island was attacked by Alliance naval forces, I can see them having a hard time forgiving that. I doubt the entire Orc race wants a war. Only the Forsaken want to wipe out all living, but seeing as their currently trying to rebuild from their little civil war I wouldn't count them as a Scourge/Black Flight worthy threat at the moment.
They have tested plagues on sleeping druids, captured mountioners, unlucky citizens, leper gnomes, dreanei, and childrenI'm sorry... but Draenei? How does that work? The Draenei have only been on Azeroth for 2 years, and most of them are still on their islands. Leper gnomes? Really? So the forsaken attacked gnomer and took a bunch of them with them? And could I get some screenshots or actual quotes with the children please? Because we already proved to you that it was an adult in Rise of the Lich King.
I have a question for you; seeing as the Alliance and the Horde are currently in a war with a being who wants to turn the town in one giant cementary...... wouldn't it make more sense to focus on the real threat instead of old hurts and insults?
Post by
Skreeran
Since you only replied to one section of my post, I'll address that...
They have tested plagues on sleeping druids, captured mountioners, unlucky citizens,
leper gnomes
, dreanei, and
children
Druids: Death Knights do it too and they're allowed in the Alliance
Mountaineers/Citizens: I hardly see this as an active attack on the Alliance. I mean, it's not right, but there are bigger problems to deal with, really...
A draenei: One incident
Again, that's not the Forsaken actively trying to wipe out the Alliance.
A premptive strike is not a very good plan when you're already fighting on several other fronts.
Look at the Soviet Union and the Allies in WW2, for example. It the Soviets were to engage in a few skirmishes over territory or resources, would it be smart to declare formal war between them? Not at that particular time, no. They still had to deal with the Axis powers.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Blood elfs do not want to be left alone, they pretty much attacked the Alliance in every single way they could come up with.On Azeroth they do just want to be left alone. Yes they kill the Night Elves and the dwarf... but they are both in their lands, spying and causing trouble, no different then Alliance killing Horde spys in their zones. Of course, if you can't blame the trolls for the Alliance dislike, can't really blame the Blood Elves either then; after all, in their eyes the Alliance abandoned them and sent the Prince of Lordareon to destroy them, then betrayed their leader Kael'thas but sending him off to die... even if he does in turn betray them. Of course, they don't seem to have a problem with the Draenei, the situation at the Falcon Watch not with standing, after all, they don't attack Velen when he shows up to restart the Sunwell for them with the help of M'uru.
And the girl from RotLK was described as being young.Young woman.
People say its not wise to declare a war while a bigger threat watchs over, but its pretty wise to take action if the enemy has seceretly prepared genocide behind your back for years.Forsaken yes... Orc's and the New Horde no.
Post by
Skreeran
Blood elfs do not want to be left alone, they pretty much attacked the Alliance in every single way they could come up with.I really don't know where you're getting this.
Plus, you got Valeera as Varian's little sister...
Most orcs want a war.Saurfang would beg to differ...
The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair. Our minds were finally free, yes ... Free to relive all of the unthinkable acts that we had performed under the Legion's influence.
And the mindsets of Doomhammer, Thrall, Durotan, Eitrigg, Drek'thar, Rexxar, and Rehgar would indicate that it's a fairly common sentiment.
Leper Gnomes, yes, they are part of the experiments.You're talking about Ganoosh and Jennings, yes? They aren't used in any experiments that I know of, and are actually free and walknig around.
It would, but it would not be wise to imagine that the casualitys from Broken Frount and Wrathagte did not happen.Broken Front happened
after
Varian declared war. As for the Wrathgate, yeah, yeah... Rogue faction and all that.
Thus, Thrall clearly deserves to die because of what happened at the Wrathgate. That will make everything better and won't cause thousands more deaths or anything.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
The Blood elves have made a leech in the holy lightAnd they stopped and now have the Naaru's favor.
grave robed Uther
One
elf did this, and Uthur forgave him.
poisend the Aldor's watersScryer's, not Horde.
kicked the high elves out of thier homes because the refused to suck demon bloodWhen did this happen? I'm pretty sure this didn't happen.
Edit: Also, look up and answer my post.
Post by
Adamsm
The Blood elves have made a leech in the holy light, grave robed Uther, poisend the Aldor's waters, kicked the high elves out of thier homes because the refused to suck demon blood, and pretty much @#$%ed everything up.
I know the Allince abandoned them in their eyes, but they didn't!
They think everyone is responsible for thier demise.The Aldor and Scryer thing... that doesn't count as over all pure blood elf as all races can join both of those. Don't know anything about the grave robbing thing, could I get a link for that? The blood elves did as their prince said, and don't forget, M'uru willingly gave himself up so the redemption of the Blood Elves could occur. The High Elves left because they didn't want to become like their sin'dori cousins. Honestly? The blood elves haven't screwed up the world as badly as any other race on Azeroth. And yes, the Alliance did abandon them; Garthios and his people made it clear that a dead elf is the only good elf.
And this is understandable, but really, what would YOU do?Focus on the real threats instead of the imagined ones.
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