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Victimless Crimes
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Post by
MyTie
There is such a thing as a victimless "crime." They don't deserve to be called crimes, but our current legal system pretends they are. They are very confused.
Name a law that is currently upheld where there is no victim of any crime being prosecuted.
Post by
Squishalot
Sorry, but just because I haven't seen it yet, has anyone defined 'dignity' yet?
Yes, dignity is intrinsic. Otherwise killing Jews, owning slaves, and killing babies is perfectly justifiable.
This is where my question is coming from.
Is dignity a right, and where would it sit in your hierarchy of rights?
What does dignity involve? If your government forbids same-sex marriage, is that stripping them of their dignity?
Ok,you guys are back on topic. Carry on.
Post by
122776
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
Could the added risk of a person put a statistical burden on society? If you consider each person a contributer to society, and have value, doesn't society lose worth through needless death?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
There is such a thing as a victimless "crime." They don't deserve to be called crimes, but our current legal system pretends they are. They are very confused.
Name a law that is currently upheld where there is no victim of any crime being prosecuted.
Don't ask don't tell
- no one is victimized if you state you are gay.
That float your bubble?
Post by
MyTie
There is such a thing as a victimless "crime." They don't deserve to be called crimes, but our current legal system pretends they are. They are very confused.
Name a law that is currently upheld where there is no victim of any crime being prosecuted.
Don't ask don't tell
- no one is victimized if you state you are gay.
That float your bubble?
Military law. Interesting realm, since it is so very different than civil law or criminal law. I also have an interesting perspective on it since I was in the military.
The victim for breaking the "don't ask, don't tell" law is the american people. I can say that the breakdown of following lawful orders while in the military provides an atmosphere where it is impossible to maintain order and discipline. Believe me, discipline is needed when you are ordered to your death for the protection of your country.
But, that arguement is blanket. I suppose it does work, and is just as fair as brining up military law at all in this conversation. You could argue that a person outing themselves as homosexual whenever they please makes it impossible to place that person in certain situations with other men, thereby hampering their usefullness, and therefore the mission the US military has to protect its citizens. I mean, are you going to order 10 men to huddle together in a tent, where they are to live, eat, dress, and bathe, if one of the dudes is openly gay? Would you stick a woman in the same quarters? No. But then, women get thier own quarters. Can we stick the gay men in with the women? No. So, does the military have to give the special quarters to gay people? No. The military doesn't have time to deal with that mess, nor should it expend resources it should be using on winning a war. Demanding it face that instead of our enemies is simply shortsighted political correctness taking a big fat messy poo all over common sense's face.
Post by
Squishalot
Homophobia is a fairly common trait in people.
Would having exposed firearms be more intimidating/victimising of other people than having concealed firearms? Same principle, I'd imagine.
Edit: Oh, and from a slightly disturbing murder trial in Australia, you can raise a provocation defense if you kill a man while he's making "aggressive homosexual actions" towards you, because a reasonable man would feel like his dignity/honour is being threatened.
Post by
MyTie
Homophobia is a fairly common trait in people.I don't like the word 'homophobia'. It makes it seem as though there is some fear attached to every action that is disapproving of homosexuality. I didn't say that the other men would disapprove of homosexuals, I'm just saying they wouldn't want to shower with a dude who loves male genitalia. I don't believe there is a
fear
of the homosexuals, as if they are the buggymen. Charachtarizing the opposition in this way does yourself disservice.Would having exposed firearms be more intimidating/victimising of other people than having concealed firearms? Same principle, I'd imagine.I wouldn't want to bunk down with a person who wanted to shoot me either. I don't have a problem with people who bring a gun to war. I don't have a problem with bunking down with men. I have a problem with bringing murderous people to war, and people who want to have relations with me while I sleep. It isn't the gun, it is the crime. It isn't the man, it is his intentions.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
it is his intentions.
All gay men want to do MyTie apparently :P
Your outlook on gays seems a bit cynical.
I roomed with a gay guy in college for a semester. We were great friends. I didn't wait up all night with a loaded shotgun in case he "got any ideas."
Post by
MyTie
it is his intentions.
All gay men want to do MyTie apparently :P
Your outlook on gays seems a bit cynical.
I roomed with a gay guy in college for a semester. We were great friends. I didn't wait up all night with a loaded shotgun in case he "got any ideas."
Did you shower naked with him?
Post by
165617
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
165617
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I have showered naked with a gay man that happened to think I was cute, it didn't phase me.
I would not strip down naked with a woman or a man who was openly sexually attracted to me, except for my wife. It would be unacceptible to my marriage. Therefore, I couldn't be in a unit that might require those close and explicit contact with any person who professes a desire for unprofessional relationships with men, because I am a man.
Post by
Deepthought
Did you shower naked with him?
Would you attempt to ravish any female who you showered with? No? Then why would a gay man do it to another man?
It would be unacceptible to my marriage.
Why? Showing together =/= sex or any type of affair...
man who was openly sexually attracted to me, except for my wife.
So every single gay man is attracted to you? Uhhhh...
Name a law that is currently upheld where there is no victim of any crime being prosecuted.
(Some) Drug laws.
Post by
MyTie
Did you shower naked with him?
Would you attempt to ravish any female who you showered with? No? Then why would a gay man do it to another man?So why is it inappropriate for men and women to shower together in the military? You are trying to label this as a non issue. You are trying to see it from the gay person's point of view so fervantly that you are forgetting everyone else there.Name a law that is currently upheld where there is no victim of any crime being prosecuted.
(Some) Drug laws.The drug laws have consequences to the quality of life of society as a whole, as well as economic reprocussions.
Post by
Squishalot
I don't like the word 'homophobia'. It makes it seem as though there is some fear attached to every action that is disapproving of homosexuality. I didn't say that the other men would disapprove of homosexuals, I'm just saying they wouldn't want to shower with a dude who loves male genitalia. I don't believe there is a fear of the homosexuals, as if they are the buggymen. Charachtarizing the opposition in this way does yourself disservice.
Not using it in a "I fear homosexuals" stance, just saying that that's how it's often perceived. A lot of people do actually *fear* showering with a dude who loves male genitalia, because they feel exposed, because they feel inadequate, or for whatever reasons.
Fear is just a series of biological reactions in your body in response to an event (generally, depending on which psychological theory you subscribe to), so as long as a stimulus (being placed in close proximity with someone who is openly gay) provokes that biological response, there are grounds to say that there is fear a fear of the homosexuals, which creates a victim. The idea that you're concerned about sleeping next to someone who wants to do you is a fear factor.
To say that "you just don't want to be around them" instead, without a victim-like response, is simply discrimination. It'd be like saying you didn't want to sleep next to a black guy, just because.
Post by
165617
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Ok, this thread has been hijacked, so I will now FORCE you all to discuss this
The War on Drugs- has it failed, should we end it, what should be do about our drug policy if anything etc.
Drop the gay people showering it is not a victimless crime ergo it is against this thread.
Motion denied.
Post by
MyTie
I'm saying that fear is not the biological response generally felt by people who oppose homosexuality. People don't start sweating and get scared at the sight of a gay man. A gay man walks into a department store and people don't tear out of emergency exits in terror.
'Homophobia' is ridiculous.
Post by
TheMediator
I have showered naked with a gay man that happened to think I was cute, it didn't phase me.
I would not strip down naked with a woman or a man who was openly sexually attracted to me, except for my wife. It would be unacceptible to my marriage. Therefore, I couldn't be in a unit that might require those close and explicit contact with any person who professes a desire for unprofessional relationships with men, because I am a man.
Sounds like you're insecure. That is your own fault - others don't have to go out of their way to not make you feel that way. Sometimes when I am alone with a big black guy on an elevator or some other place, I think "This guy could probably kill me and no one would even know it" - that doesn't mean I'm entitled to shoot him.
It doesn't matter if there is a 'victim' of a crime if the victim is causing themselves their distress, otherwise you're just infringing on an innocent person's rights. If my own fears are causing me distress, its on me to fix it, I don't expect that man's rights to be taken to make me feel safer.
'Homophobia' is ridiculous
No its not. If you're not fearful of them, then you shouldn't have any problem with someone feeling something towards you. You're just scared you'll feel some way back.
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