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Why Surge of Light?
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Post by
91278
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Post by
ande9249
Could blizzard make a "Lightwell awareness Day" an in-game holiday with free demonstrations on how to use it? I mean come on, have them take a spot in the barrens (it has the space) put up a few lightwells and a quest that goes like this "carry this REALLY hot potato in your wand/ammo slot. Then try to stay alive for 25sec, oh and there are some lightwells for your convience"...
Post by
422346
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Post by
91278
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Post by
karlusdavius
Ok, let's look at this from a different angle. Let's forget the Twin Valks example and let's assume a pure tank'n'spank fight.
There is no movement at all. Everyone can just stand there and go about his business, be it healing or tanking or dps.
It is blatantly obvious that SoL will actually harm you in such a fight.
Since there is no movement at all the SoLFH will cast in exactly the same time as a normal FH and it will heal less (since it can't crit)
. Less healing is generally bad, I hope we agree on that
no, no, no, NO, NO, NO,
N
O!
im sorry but let me get this straight. you think that the GCD makes this spell bad?
GCD - 1 second
My flash heal = 1.2 second cast time
GCD has already finished when my flash heal hit.
I have a
n INSTANT
Flash Heal direct after.
Critical flash heal = 7.5k
Non critical = 5.5k
i just healed 13k in the space of how fast i could push my button again after the initial cast. and you think renew does better? what space cakes are you eating?
you clam to have sound reasoning but we have brought up so many things that counter it that i think we have made it non sound. Yet you continue to fight for it. valiant, but your wrong. SoL is an amazing talent. just like a druids omen of clarity, but i don't see you arguing the toss in the druid forums do i?
Post by
MegaVolt
you clam to have sound reasoning but we have brought up so many things that counter it that i think we have made it non sound. Yet you continue to fight for it. valiant, but your wrong. SoL is an amazing talent. just like a druids omen of clarity, but i don't see you arguing the toss in the druid forums do i?
No, mostly the things that got brought up were insults and comments without any logic to them.
E.g. in your example you completely neglect that you are locked out from casting for a full 2.4 seconds.
Yes, when critting FH and then getting an instant SoLFH right afterwards you heal 13k in 1.2s but the GCD will lock you out for an additional 1.2s (not 1s by the way) so what you really do is take a 2.4s window to get a total healing of 13k.
Assuming you wouldn't have the SoLFH proc and you crit with FH twice in a row you would have used the very same 2.4s window to generate 15k healing which obviously is better in the long run.
The only reason to prefer the 13k to the 15k is if the person in question would die exactly between second 1.2 and second 2.4 - which is quite unlikely (after all you did just hit him with a 7.5k heal at second 1.2 and tandrum doesn't really do that much damage).
EDIT:
Surge of Light has an Internal Cooldown
. On that comment is a link to the new, less detailed maths.
Thank's very much for this! Awesome. Exactly what I was looking for .. I should have thought of looking there myself actually.
With those numbers I'd say SoL is quite a good talent after all. More then 300 mp5 is quite nice to have and it is certainly enough to justify taking a small hit to the healing a Priest can do. It will be very, very hard to reach a point at which the gear is so awesome that anybody can just spec out of >300 mp5.
Now I'm convinced that it's a good talent. The mp5 alone makes it worth it.
Even if we take that number and divide it by 2 (meaning low FH usage, lots of Renew healing or something like that) it still is worth it.
Post by
91278
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Post by
karlusdavius
The GCD isn't the issue, we deal with GCD regardless of any spell. However, your still mentioning renew here, which is just pointless, because in the same time frame you would do minimal healing and get nothing in terms of utility except for the possible SoL proc, which you didn't want to take.
HPS means nothing anymore. HPS will be high if there is incoming damage and your healing like a Mofo. You just managed to spread your argument over two threads.
Bored of it now.
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179389
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469257
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302110
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174266
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Post by
OscarDivine
My current holy crit is almost 18%.
Question: Because of the mana efficiency that Valandilv pointed out in his awesome maths, would this mean that for a holy priest getting geared that it would be worthwhile to gem for crit until some amount is reached, just for the SoL mana efficiency?
In order to be statistically "guaranteed" a crit from a 5-hit PoH or CoH (which should hit 6), you need 20% crit rating, so you're not far off, though it should be better. Because there is a 50% chance of getting a SoL proc from a crit, that means you technically would need 40% crit chance to get a guaranteed SoL proc from a 5-hit PoH or CoH. This is not really likely if you're holy, but most of us tend to hover between the 25-30% area. Don't ignore haste, however. It is an enormous help for recovering through Burst damage phases.
Post by
387103
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Post by
MegaVolt
In order to be statistically "guaranteed" a crit from a 5-hit PoH or CoH (which should hit 6), you need 20% crit rating, so you're not far off, though it should be better. Because there is a 50% chance of getting a SoL proc from a crit, that means you technically would need 40% crit chance to get a guaranteed SoL proc from a 5-hit PoH or CoH. This is not really likely if you're holy, but most of us tend to hover between the 25-30% area. Don't ignore haste, however. It is an enormous help for recovering through Burst damage phases.
Back to 8th grade math please. You never get a guaranteed crit unless you have 100% crit rate. Please don't violate math like that, it really hurts.
because the GDC is always shorter as the cast.
GCD = 1.5 seconds (without haste)
Normal cast = 1.5 seconds (without haste)
Haste affects both equally, meaning they get the same speed gain with your haste.
So what makes you think that the GCD would be anything other then exactly equal to the cast?
@Gothri:
I agree completely with your post by just looking at the healing done. I value the front loaded heal not so high and I doubt there will be a major difference between it and the back loaded spell that is able to crit.
However, as we have seen in this topic, SoL will give anything between 200 and 500 mp5. Even if we assume 0 benefit of SoL for the healing itself the effective mp5 should make the group that took it run out of mana much less then the control group, resulting in an overall superior performance.
But you are right, without the possibility to really test is this is mostly personal belief and nothing more.
Post by
karlusdavius
Back to 8th grade math please. You never get a guaranteed crit unless you have 100% crit rate. Please don't violate math like that, it really hurts.
Here you go, sweetpea
Post by
OscarDivine
Back to 8th grade math please. You never get a guaranteed crit unless you have 100% crit rate. Please don't violate math like that, it really hurts.
I didn't say guaranteed. I said "guaranteed", the quotes modify it to imply that it isn't REALLY a guarantee. 20% = 1 in 5, which means that one spell hit out of 5 is likely to crit.
Are you the one being pugnacious here now?
(oh, and if you have to look that word up, go re-take your SAT's. Poor vocabulary really hurts).
Post by
Paolo
Don't be a dork, Karl. In this case, MVolt is quite right. Oscar has made this error many times on these boards. You cannot add probabilities.
In order to be statistically "guaranteed" a crit from a 5-hit PoH or CoH (which should hit 6), you need 20% crit ratingFirst, there is no such thing as "statistically guaranteed," no matter how many quotation marks you use. You can say 99% sure, or 99.9% sure (statisticians call this a confidence interval), but "statistically guaranteed" is a meaningless concept.
Val has gone over this above, but probability theory is tricky territory until you really get it. It's definitely not 8th grade math, but it is simple college-level technique. So briefly:
The chance of critting at least once in 6 CoH hits (a single cast) is 1 minus .
If your crit rate is C, then the chance that none will hit critically is (1-C)^6. So for a 25% crit rate, you'll see an 82% likelihood of critting on at least one of those hits. In order to achieve 99% likelihood to crit on at least one cast, you'd need to have a 50% crit rate. And there is no way to achieve 100% likelihood to crit without having 100% crit.
25% crit => 82% to proc SoL
30% crit => 88% to proc SoL
35% crit => 92% to proc SoL
Ain't no guarantees, nor "guarantees," in that thar chart.
Post by
OscarDivine
Don't be a dork, Karl. In this case, MVolt is quite right. Oscar has made this error many times on these boards. You cannot add probabilities.
In order to be statistically "guaranteed" a crit from a 5-hit PoH or CoH (which should hit 6), you need 20% crit ratingFirst, there is no such thing as "statistically guaranteed," no matter how many quotation marks you use. You can say 99% sure, or 99.9% sure (statisticians call this a confidence interval), but "statistically guaranteed" is a meaningless concept.
Val has gone over this above, but probability theory is tricky territory until you really get it. It's definitely not 8th grade math, but it is simple college-level technique. So briefly:
The chance of critting at least once in 6 CoH hits (a single cast) is 1 minus .
If your crit rate is C, then the chance that none will hit critically is (1-C)^6. So for a 25% crit rate, you'll see an 82% likelihood of critting on at least one of those hits. In order to achieve 99% likelihood to crit on at least one cast, you'd need to have a 50% crit rate. And there is no way to achieve 100% likelihood to crit without having 100% crit.
25% crit => 82% to proc SoL
30% crit => 88% to proc SoL
35% crit => 92% to proc SoL
Ain't no guarantees, nor "guarantees," in that thar chart.
LOL well there we go why the hell hasn't anybody ever corrected me before?
Post by
Paolo
:)
More than once I've presented essentially that exact calculation in response to your claims regarding CoH and SoL. But it's ok -- probability theory really is foreign territory for most people. Which is why it's amazingly easy to
lie with statistics
...very few people understand how to think about random or uncertain events.
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