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Let's talk about seat belt laws
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Post by
TheMediator
I'm plenty skeptical of my beliefs. I'm even more skeptical of yours, if the only way of defending them is through insults.
Yes, because all I've done is insult you. You just love your hyperbolic statements.
End. Look it up.
The net result of his actions included his death. He knew that. That was a clearly visible end of his actions. Now, I don't know if he doesn't count himself as dead since he resurrected himself, or if he's just biased and doesn't really want to punish himself, but I would think that he would be in hell right now, if killing oneself damns oneself to hell.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
End. Look it up.
The net result of his actions included his death. He knew that. That was a clearly visible end of his actions. Now, I don't know if he doesn't count himself as dead since he resurrected himself, or if he's just biased and doesn't really want to punish himself, but I would think that he would be in hell right now, if killing oneself damns oneself to hell.
Principle of double effect.
Killing himself wasn't the end of his actions.
Post by
TheMediator
Considering that principle, it sounds to me like its fair for you to kill yourself if it would relieve you of your pain. I allow myself to get hit by a bus to end my suffering, however I also die.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Considering that principle, it sounds to me like its fair for you to kill yourself if it would relieve you of your pain. I allow myself to get hit by a bus to end my suffering, however I also die.
So let's parse your example:
End = Killing yourself
Means = get hit by a bus
Circumstances = suffering
I fail to see how your example is affected by DDE. There is only one effect.
Give me a parsed example if you have one.
Here's an actual example:
A guy is holding a gun to your daughter's head and it's pretty obvious he's going to shoot. You have a gun behind your back and you know you're fast enough and deadly enough to kill him before he gets a shot off, so you do.
End: saving your daughter
-Double Effect: killing the man
Means: shooting him in the head
Circumstances: man is about to kill your daughter
Post by
TheMediator
No, my end is to relieve suffering of myself. I intend to end my suffering, however I have the side effect of dying to do so. Sounds like it applies to me.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
No, my end is to relieve suffering of myself. I intend to end my suffering, however I have the side effect of dying to do so. Sounds like it applies to me.
No parsed example...thanks a lot.
This slightly modified version of your account would look like this:
End: Relieve suffering
Means: Killing yourself
Circumstances: Suffering
Post by
TheMediator
End: Relieve suffering
Means: Killing yourself
Circumstances: Suffering
Yeah... and from what I understand, double effect doesn't have a problem with that. Perhaps I shouldn't use jumping into a bus as the example (since the pain relief comes as a result of death, and not the only way around)... but what about an overdose of pain killers to relieve my pain? I'm using those pain killers to relieve my pain, but I as a result die.
End : Pain Relief
Means: Heavy usage of Pain Killers, Death
Circumstances: Suffering
Edit: Ugh, just read up on what painkiller overdose does, doesn't sound like a very painless way to die at all actually...
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
End: Relieve suffering
Means: Killing yourself
Circumstances: Suffering
Yeah... and from what I understand, double effect doesn't have a problem with that. Perhaps I shouldn't use jumping into a bus as the example (since the pain relief comes as a result of death, and not the only way around)... but what about an overdose of pain killers to relieve my pain? I'm using those pain killers to relieve my pain, but I as a result die.
End : Pain Relief
Means: Heavy usage of Pain Killers, Death
Circumstances: Suffering
?
Ok to slightly modify your new example:
End: Pain Relief
----DD: Death
Means: Overdose of Pain Killers
Circumstances: Suffering
This is coming directly from the paragraph above your parse. Overdosing by it's very definition is bad/wrong. So because the means the morally bad, the whole act is.
Now if we take your parse (heavy use of pain killers), we're a little better off. As long as the intent is to relieve pain through the pain killers and not to die, then it's ok. However that's rarely ever the case. Unless it's an accidental death, death is always at least partially intended (except perhaps if the person is completely ignorant of the effects of heavy doses of pain killer).
Post by
TheMediator
Alright... so let's say, one uses pain killers to relieve one's pain, and eventually builds up enough of an immunity that only lethal levels of pain killers would actually relieve one's pain. Is it really suicide if one continues to use painkillers to relieve one's pain, even if such usage would cause one to die?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Alright... so let's say, one uses pain killers to relieve one's pain, and eventually builds up enough of an immunity that only lethal levels of pain killers would actually relieve one's pain. Is it really suicide if one continues to use painkillers to relieve one's pain, even if such usage would cause one to die?
Yes,
if
the intention is to relieve pain not to die.
I nice "unscientific" way of testing this would be to gauge your reaction (as doctor) if your patient died. If it's a "Ah, well, we tried our best" reaction, then chances your intention was really to relieve pain. If your reaction is to be happy that they died because they are free from pain now, then chances are that your intention was that they die--at least partially.
...
Wowhead always goes into maintenance when I try to post -_-
Post by
TheMediator
Wowhead always goes into maintenance when I try to post -_-
Yeah its been having problems lately.
I nice "unscientific" way of testing this would be to gauge your reaction (as doctor) if your patient died. If it's a "Ah, well, we tried our best" reaction, then chances your intention was really to relieve pain. If your reaction is to be happy that they died because they are free from pain now, then chances are that your intention was that they die--at least partially.
I suppose that makes sense.
I guess then, the proper thing to say, is that one should attempt to achieve happiness or betterment for others regardless of its potential risk, instead of saying that one should seek to end life when it would lead to the end of suffering.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Now just to tie this point up.
The Passion of Christ:
End: To save mankind
-----DD: His death
Means: Handing himself over to the Jews/Romans
Circumstances: He's God (lol)
He did not want to die, that was clearly not his intended end--it was an unfortunate double effect.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I guess then, the proper thing to say, is that one should attempt to achieve happiness or betterment for others
regardless of its potential risk
, instead of saying that one should seek to end life when it would lead to the end of suffering.
Yes to all, except the underlined part. The intended end needs to be proportionately
better
equal to or better than the DD is bad. In other words, diving in front of a bullet in order to grab a tootsie roll for your dying grandmother is not a good act, because the good of a tootsie roll is not proportionately better than the
good of
bad of losing your life.
Edited as marked.
Post by
TheMediator
In other words, diving in front of a bullet in order to grab a tootsie roll for your dying grandmother is not a good act,
I almost ended up spraying Mountain Dew all over my monitor. Thanks for that image.
Post by
349634
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheMediator
I'm just going to stick with the topic title and voice my opinion.
Yeah, that's probably good. As much as I might like to avoid it, I sometimes let myself go off on a tangent.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Seat belts > car crashes > injuries > death > suicide > Jesus > double effect > tootsie rolls > mountain dew.
We deserve a prize.
Post by
Skyfire
Seat belts > car crashes > injuries > death > suicide > Jesus > double effect > tootsie rolls > mountain dew.
We deserve a prize.
No, no, no, it's:
Tootsie rolls > seat belts > car crashes > injuries > death > suicide > Jesus > double effect > Mountain Dew.
Post by
129077
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
73830
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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