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General Lore Discussions
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Post by
morginar
Well, all one needs to do to redeem oneself in wow is shout "draenor is free."
Or just... "Gonna kill demons."
Post by
Rankkor
Well, all one needs to do to redeem oneself in wow is shout "draenor is free."
Or just... "Gonna kill demons."
Not even that works.
Grom apparently dies during the recruitment scenario. And Yrel has pretty much become a Holy Nazi. Come to think of it, depending on how exactly the scenario goes, its entirely possible that the cadre of mag'har volunteers we bring back with us, is the last remnant of orcs left in Draenor that didn't join the Lightbound Cult.
Post by
morginar
Reply to Rank.
Still, it's a bunch orcs that tried to kill us all, Azeroth, draenei, arakkoa and ogres. And their big moment of redemption, is that gul'dan did a gul'dan on them.
Post by
Rankkor
So.... The long awaited windrunner sister reunion finally happened.
Anti-climax doesn't even begin to describe it.
did alleria ask why is sylvanas leading the horde? Has she been informed about how the alliance betrayed and massacred her people twice? Or how vereesa personally executed the second massacre without an inch of remorse or regret? Did she maybe question for even a second if her loyalties are misplaced?
No. Of course not. What are you, dumb or something? Here, let's show sylvanas being a homicidal psycho @#$%&, let's have alleria double down in hypocrisy by calling sylvanas an abomination (when sylvanas didn't choose to be a banshee, whereas alleria gave herself to the void willingly)
The only good thing about it was vereesa apologizing to sylvanas for chickening out in war crimes. That's it.
The wait was SO not worth it
Post by
morginar
Reply
Well
https://twitter.com/Moorgard/status/1004040114475896832?s=20
There that too.
I'm betting that it's that the little game thing was supposed to be that all three where true or something. And to show that Sylvanas isn't pure evil manifest.
So, yeah. Its good in that regard. She isn't evil. And shows a redeeming feature of hers (her sisters.)
But you are correct in that it is underwhelming for the long awaited reunion. But it was needed so that we have some shade of grey in the dark abyss that is BfA (and BtS) story for the horde.
Post by
Stabhorn
Before the Storm thoughts:
Turalyon is a big fat hypocrite. After a thousand years of fighting against the Legion - alongside demons and a void-touched woman, mind you - he treats Foal like dirt for being Forsaken, insulting him and treating him as nothing more than a monster. Shame on him.
There's not much to say about how Sylvanas handled things. Despite the core of her character being her love for her people, she throws them away pointlessly. What a waste.
Personally, I found the goblin and gnome sideplot very boring. We already have interesting goblin and gnome characters, so why invent new - utterly pointless - ones to kill off unceremoniously?
I thought the Anduin plot was good, along with the repercussions of the war against the Legion. Overall though, the book was generally disappointing. I thought it was better written than War Crimes; there were parts of this book, in terms of character, description and prose, that I genuinely enjoyed.
Post by
morginar
Reply to stabs critique of BtS
save that Anduin can’t do wrong now with his new evil sense. And is the main character of the book :s
Post by
Adamsm
In regards to something Stab said.
Personally, I found the goblin and gnome sideplot very boring. We already have interesting goblin and gnome characters, so why invent new - utterly pointless - ones to kill off unceremoniously?Because that's what Golden does now; create pointless characters to murder in a misguided attempt to cause the readers to feel emotions but always fails horribly because she can't write worth crap any longer.
Post by
Rankkor
In regards to something Stab said.
Personally, I found the goblin and gnome sideplot very boring. We already have interesting goblin and gnome characters, so why invent new - utterly pointless - ones to kill off unceremoniously?Because that's what Golden does now; create pointless characters to murder in a misguided attempt to cause the readers to feel emotions but always fails horribly because she can't write worth crap any longer.
Nah, the real reason is:
You gave yourself the answer there Stab. Because they were going to be unceremoniously killed off, and they didn't want to kill off what few goblin and gnome characters we have. Those are among the most underrepresented races in the game so far. Other than Gelbin, there's probably not even half a dozen noteworthy gnomes in the lore right now, and the goblins are not exactly doing much better.
If the plot required them to die, then by necessity, they'd have to be red-shirt characters we wont miss.
And Adams, Golden is STILL miles better than Knaak. At least her books don't make me fall asleep.
Dammit, I have to get that book somehow. But I can't find it T_T
And I know already, without having read it, that the book is gonna be little more than a sucker punch for me, as a horde fan, but I'm a completionist, and I simply MUST read the novels that bridge one expansion into the next. To date, I've only skipped three warcraft books and I don't plan to skip this one. But most reviews I've read have already noted that this book is more or less exclusively alliance fanservice. Alliance = Good. Horde = Bad. Even if we have to retcon a character's entire personality to make her the evil wicked witch of the west for our boy Dorothy-Anduin to vanquish.
Post by
Adamsm
And Adams, Golden is STILL miles better than Knaak. At least her books don't make me fall asleep.Not really; she's gone downhill massively in the last few books but opinion is opinion.
And I don't know....since a lot of books are just glossed over anyway in game, may as well just skip this one since it sounds like the same crap that doesn't matter anymore. I watched a video by one of my new favourite streamers recently and she said that one of the biggest story issues with Warcraft is that most of the stuff has to be read outside of the game to get the full story.
I've said it before; I'm not buying the Warcraft books anymore. I'm a re-reader, and can read books multiple times...but I've had no urge to pick up any of the old Warcraft books and read them again. If I want to know what happens, I'll just read the summery's from now on.
Post by
morginar
Arathi spoil
In arathi there is a graveyard for those good forsaken that was only going to join the good guys and put the true queen in power who hasn’t done anything. With their own plaques and mementos. That’s right far more than was done for Vol’jin.
everything evil done by horde needs to be set in stone.
Post by
Rankkor
Arathi spoil
In arathi there is a graveyard for those good forsaken that was only going to join the good guys and put the true queen in power who hasn’t done anything. With their own plaques and mementos. That’s right far more than was done for Vol’jin.
everything evil done by horde needs to be set in stone.
That's another thing that bothers me. Any death taking place in the alliance is treated like a tragedy. Whereas deaths taking place on the horde are treated as just another tuesday.
This goes back as far as Cataclysm really. Alliance loses
this guy
during the storyline in the barrens? His
widow
shows up to mourn his death and humanize him as just a beloved husband, fighting a war and doing the best he could. Meanwhile, horde loses two whole villages full of NPCs in the barrens, and not only we get nobody, it never comes up again, except ONCE during War Crimes, where the massacre is justified and excused.
Alliance loses their high king, and not only he gets a 3 minute long BADASS cinematic to portray the most glorious death in the franchise so far (short of Broxigar himself maybe) and an entire city district is dedicated to his memory. Horde loses their warchief (AGAIN, mind you), and not only his cutscene is like 20 seconds long, it then gets hijacked by Varian's cutscene, and then he doesn't even get a plaque at the foot of a bench, in the ass end of nowhere in the barrens. Not even a measly flower in Sen'jin Village. And this wasn't a nameless red shirt, this was the #$%&ing warchief we're talking about here.
its like our characters are disposable trash we're not supposed to mourn. Or at least that's what it feels like. And I don't have many high hopes for the many losses we're bound to incur in BfA. I'm mostly mentally bracing myself for another expansion I know I wont enjoy.
Its always the same pattern. Good Expansion (WOTLK), Terrible Expansion (Cata), Good Expansion (MoP), Terrible Expansion (WoD), Good Expansion (Legion), so naturally, what follows has to be a terrible expansion (BfA). So the consolation prize here, is that at least whatever comes next is statistically likely to be awesome once more.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
morginar
Indeed. (though i'd say cata wasn't a bad expac per say, it was just overambitious. But 1-60 questing is beter than 60-80, and I wouldn't say wrath either was a good expac. As it tossed ner'zhul, sylvanas and blood elves aside in favor of Arthas vs Tirion (there must always be was also a bad ending))
And as for what's worse of Knaak and Golden, I'd say plague and cholera.
And as for the horde evil in stone. I'd say that Theramore is a stellar example for it. It's put as a evil, because the theramoore incursions into the barrens and durotar is ignored. Purge of Dalaran too. No updates where given, and legion had Aethas give away Felo'melorn so he could beg for forgiveness. (How dare he make Jaina ethnically purge sunreavers)
Post by
Adamsm
its like our characters are disposable trash we're not supposed to mourn. Or at least that's what it feels like. And I don't have many high hopes for the many losses we're bound to incur in BfA. I'm mostly mentally bracing myself for another expansion I know I wont enjoy.Of course we're not; after all, the way the game is going, it's just suppose to be dressing as you go to the raid content and get the gear. And any deaths we see will be the same old same old...they die, and no one really cares beyond the 5 minutes following it, such as how Maraad was treated in Warlords, the deaths in Legion and so on.
But then again, since so much of the 'actual' Lore takes place in the books, the digital comics and the extra things on the site, it's hard to actually care about anyone in Warcraft anymore especially since the big scenes never show us the heroes doing things.
Post by
Stabhorn
I have to disagree with you a bit, Rank. Varian was, from an overall standpoint, a much more significant and important figure and one of the cornerstones of the WoW universe, and he deserved to go out the way he did. Vol'jin was important, but he's not a match for Varian. I'd expect a similar grand send-off for Thrall, but not for Tyrande.
Remember, Vol'jin's story really isn't done, while Varian's is.
Post by
morginar
That's only because more has been done with Varian. Too much if you ask me, as his story became less of bringing something to the table, and more leaching on others. (wolfheart to a little patience for night elves)
Still, his send of was very of putting. Death by a no name. And no line of succession, unlike Varian who had. *shiver* Anduin.
Post by
Adamsm
Psh, look at Vol'jin's 'grand' act before becoming Warchief. He survived the attempted assassination by Malrok in the Mists Scenario and then if you want to see him stand against the Zandalari, help the Pandas fight back against them, make good friends with Chen and that human hunter who was there at his funeral......You had to read Shadows of the Horde; mind, you want to read Shadows of the Horde as it cleans the pallet of Twilight of the Aspects, Tides of War and the coming War Crimes.
But that is the issue of Warcraft now; you want the full story/real story, you need to read the books because Blizzard isn't going to put in the effort to show us these things in game. I was watching a video that was talking about how WoW and FFXIV tell the stories differently, and to me the biggest one is that in 14, Your Character is there; because the cutscenes are done with the in game engine, your avatar is there and interacts with everything. The final cut scenes in WoW? Well the graphics get better but you and your allies aren't there at the end; you see Velen, Khadgar and Illidan at the end, but there is no sign of the people who did the act. Varian's big death? No sign of your character getting on the airship to get away. Legion did do stories a little better this time around but there are still a lot of things lacking.
Post by
morginar
Then again. I liked the model before WoD where the PC wasn't the main character and didn't bring a story along with him. In order to do so would require that there is a personal questline, a background etc etc. Bit like guildwars
Post by
Adamsm
Which there is in FFXIV, but I'd still like to see my WoW avatar there and be acknowledged that 'hey, we just killed this big demon thing'; have everyone showing that's fine, and do the save thing that 14 does as well, where it saves the first time you did the quest line so that is what plays when you use the book to look at the cutscenes, even if you were wearing the most gaudy thing imaginable because leveling gear is still ugly no matter what game you play.
Post by
morginar
Yeah, still. It'd need in my opinion something of a revamp of questing. Maybe something of a personal hall. With questlines akin to the order hall in legion for leveling up to current. With going here and there with friend followers, based on your race background class on what it does... (class need not be more than the old class stuff)
Because right now, the pc doesn't have a background. Starts a blank slate.
And here and there is mentions to past quests. *shrug* And raids.
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