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General Lore Discussions
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Post by
morginar
As in the broken shore?
Well...
Post by
Adamsm
Is there a forum post, guide, or video that explains the lore and storyline for Legion, specifically from Patch 7.1 to 7.3? I found a full video on the 7.3 storyline, but can't seem to find anything for 7.1 until 7.3...Anyone got any suggestions? I really need to catch up on my lore.
Do the quests? Or read through the questlines that are outlined in the achievement?
Post by
Adamsm
Just watched the 'Battle for Azeroth' Trailer...holy $%^& am I not excited in the least. Seriously; I get it's a teaser, but the entire thing, from Kul Tiras to Zandalar just made me think 'meh'. Also, looks like the whole 'work together' thing that has been shoved at us since Mists has just gone up in smoke cause it looks like it's back to Horde vs Alliance all over the place.
The Cinematic one isn't much better; 'ooo Horde is being pushed back till Sylvanas pulls off freaky shadow thing, screams for the Horde who push back. ooooo Alliance is pushed back and Anduin get's hit...then summons a massive shield of light and all the downed Alliance people get up and he screams for the Alliance and they all run forward and freeze frame' Jesu Christo on a hot tin roof.
Post by
morginar
The biggest worry of the battle for azeroth is that it sounds like a repeat of MoP with possibly sylvanas as a raid boss because a warchief can't live more than a expac or something. And horde are always evil, even when helping puppies. Allince tho, always good, no mater how many puppies are kicked.
The trailer, yea it's a big dump fighting scene. Though I liked the sylvanas part of it, badass with a sinister life drain. Anduin though, my god, what a kid.
Post by
Adamsm
Feels more like Cata then Mists.
Post by
morginar
Bit like both, but the tree on fire is like theramore, and the pvp story is totes mop.
The cata is the world changing. However it seems more of a cap level phase than an entire rewrite like cata was.
Post by
Adamsm
I just meant more the fact that the war is taking preference over everything else, even people who were originally against War seem to have no issue charging to the fore. We saw that with the 1-60 revamp as the world went to war....till you know, they took time off for Hyjal and Uldum and the later halves of Vashj and Highlands.
Also, if Zandalar is going to be a leveling zone...more then likely Zul will be tied up in a neat package in a dungeon, rather then being a raid boss, and that Allies won't even get to see it. /sigh Oh well, gotta push the PVPness in there somehow.
Post by
Rankkor
Also, if Zandalar is going to be a leveling zone...more then likely Zul will be tied up in a neat package in a dungeon, rather then being a raid boss, and that Allies won't even get to see it.
Actually, all the dungeons will be available to both sides. Much like how the shadowmoon burial grounds was available to horde players, and the bloodmaul slag mines were available to alliance players back in WoD, despite being located in zones that otherwise had no content for the other faction.
I dunno, there's some interesting things about BFA, I absolutely love that there's two continents instead of one, and that each faction goes to their own continent. This means there's going to be far less neutral quests this time around, increasing replayability by adding more faction-exclusive content.
My biggest gripe with it, as I mentioned in the offtopic thread, is that blizzard seems incapable of actually portraying both factions as morally gray, whenever they push their dumb horde vs alliance conflict thingie. So it always ends up with the alliance being the heroes, and the horde being the villains.
I'm not particularly thrilled to have a repeat of MoP, which ended with our capital besieged and our warchief being the main bad guy. I can practically hear them chiseling Sylvanas' tombstone already, and picking which poor fool is going to be the next warchief which they'll inevitably sacrifice the next time they're feeling like pushing faction conflict. Because that's apparently the only use they seem to see for the warchief position: Meat for the grinder. Sacrificial lambs for the slaughter.
Apart from that big sore, I actually liked most of what I saw about BFA.
Edit:
I guess I just don't like faction conflict as a whole, because when there's a war, SOMEONE has to be the winner, and being a winner only happens at the expense of someone else being the loser. And nobody likes being the loser.
Alliance players weren't too pleased at the string of back-to-back victories the horde had in cataclysm, horde players were not pleased at all at the absolute curb-stomp crushing handed to us during MoP.
And that's sadly what's going to happen in BFA. SOMEONE is gonna lose, and whichever side does, they're gonna understandably be angry. So by default, before they can even narrate the opening chapter of their story, we already know half the playerbase will be upset and pissed off. Any story that thrives on alienating half the fans is not really a story worth telling, IMO.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
morginar
And they are already angry from the allied races by the looks of it, that horde got nightborne and whatnot.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Honestly, I think that this time should actually throw some much needed grey into the mix for once.
See, this time, the Alliance actually has aggressors among their leadership. Namely, Jaina and Greymane. That war is probably not the answer here is not in question. HOWEVER! The fact is the Alliance does, in fact, have legitimate gripes here. It looks like we're finally getting some closure to the whole Forsaken are slaughtering people and raising them from the dead thing, in addition to the more ambiguous 'who does Lordaeron belong to'. But this time, we're lacking the straight villain which Mists threw to direct everyone's rage at.
It brings back into question the somewhat untenable reality of the Forsaken. They are corpses literally poisoning their land. They can only survivie by being the aggressors. That said, they really don't have a choice, and Sylvanas is really doing the best for her people. Now, however, she is also leading the Horde, drawing the rest of them into the conflict. The Broken Shore fiasco just threw fuel onto the fire.
I kind of like it, because Anduin clearly doesn't want to go to war. He's not his father, but he's stuck with the mess. He's got the past like...fifty years of Azeroth's war breathing down his neck in the form of Greymane, as well as the present gripes in Jaina pushing him forward. Like Lordaeron, Gilneas is on the forefront, so he, and the Alliance by extension, is being dragged into that conflict if he wants to or not. The same with Sylvanas. She's defending herself, but dragging the rest of the Horde into it. The Legion has been dealt a hefty blow they're not soon to recover from, meaning there's finally a chance to do some house keeping.
And that's the thing here. Legion has really restored my faith in Blizz's writing staff. Honestly, the expansion will probably swing around to fighting the last Old God and their forces soon enough, but I honestly feel like they finally have enough grey characters and their motivations on both sides to do a really good story.
Maybe I'm just optimistic, but the expansion honestly looks good.
Post by
Rankkor
Honestly, I think that this time should actually throw some much needed grey into the mix for once.
That's what they SHOULD do, but judging by how they've handled every single one of the faction conflicts since the broken front, that's how they don't do it.
Every.single.frikking time the horde and the alliance comes to blows, its always with the horde as the aggressors. Every single time we're the bad guys. The jerkwads. The warmongering bullies that step out of line. You can count the unambiguously evil acts the alliance has committed in the past six expansions with one hand, and not even use all the fingers (Goblin starting zone, Purge of Dalaran, burning of taurajo, destruction of the stonespire tauren, and that's it).
Meanwhile you'd need a google-doc spreadsheet to count all the many undeniably evil and dishonorable actions the horde has done starting at the broken front in WOTLK. Its been so many I've simply lost counting, but they have to be hovering around the five dozen at this point.
As much as this SHOULD be a gray vs gray conflict, I simply have few reasons to believe it will be. Blizzard's track record points at them seeing the horde as the secondary villain fodder for players to beat while the REAL threats warm up for their arrival.
See, this time, the Alliance actually has aggressors among their leadership. Namely, Jaina and Greymane.
This does little to assuage my fears because previously, the alliance also had Varian as an aggressor, in MoP they had Jaina and Tyrande and Admiral Rogers as aggressors, and they still were portrayed heroically, while the horde was portrayed in a very displeasing way for me. My fears would be diminished if they at least would point at these two and say "yes, they're evil", but no, they specifically described jaina as "not evil, just flawed" so there goes my hope of Jaina being a raid boss any time soon.
The fact is the Alliance does, in fact, have legitimate gripes here. It looks like we're finally getting some closure to the whole Forsaken are slaughtering people and raising them from the dead thing, in addition to the more ambiguous 'who does Lordaeron belong to'.
I'm not disputing that.
Quite the contrary, that right there is the main reason why I'm not as optimistic as you are, that both factions be portrayed as morally gray. Even if the alliance were somehow the aggressors, they have LEGITIMATE reasons for being so. Whereas the horde has
never
been conveniently provided with a reasonable excuse for their aggression. Not once. When the horde kicks a puppy, they do it just for fun and giggles. When the alliance kicks a puppy, they're provided with as many justifications and moral excuses to make it passable or acceptable (see the purge of dalaran, or the guy in charge of the burning of taurajo for example).
But this time, we're lacking the straight villain which Mists threw to direct everyone's rage at.
For now. Mark my words bro', I'm not even gonna pretend to be surprised when they make sylvanas evil and kill her off. Her replacement may as well just wear a star trek patented red shirt when he or she becomes warchief. For all the good that position does to anyone who gets it.
And that's the thing here. Legion has really restored my faith in Blizz's writing staff.
Well......... yeah, it did the same for me as well. Barring some extremely minor gripes, I've been overwhelmingly pleased with the story in this expansion, and the quality of the writing in general. But this does little to avert my lack of optimism regarding BFA because despite playing characters on both factions, at its core, I'm a horde player, and it seems like blizzard has permanently decided to not allow my faction to be the good guys anymore.
At this point, the amount of straight up evil crap the horde has done is so large, there's no way for the alliance to come off as gray unless they did an equally large amount of evil crap in a single expansion to catch up. Best case scenario would be a gray vs black conflict. But a gray vs gray? Lets just say I'll be EXTREMELY impressed and pleased at blizzard if they can somehow pull it off, but I'm not gonna hold my breath for it.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
Whereas the horde has never been conveniently provided with a reasonable excuse for their aggression. Not once. When the horde kicks a puppy, they do it just for fun and giggles. When the alliance kicks a puppy, they're provided with as many justifications and moral excuses to make it passable or acceptable (see the purge of dalaran, or the guy in charge of the burning of taurajo for example).
This is good though, because for once, they are defending themselves. It adds an excellent dynamic to the issue in that, while maybe not always in the right, Sylvanas is for once legitimately defending her kingdom.
This does little to assuage my fears because previously, the alliance also had Varian as an aggressor, in MoP they had Jaina and Tyrande and Admiral Rogers as aggressors, and they still were portrayed heroically, while the horde was portrayed in a very displeasing way for me. My fears would be diminished if they at least would point at these two and say "yes, they're evil", but no, they specifically described jaina as "not evil, just flawed" so there goes my hope of Jaina being a raid boss any time soon.
She could still be. The important thing is that like Sylvanas, Jaina isn't really evil, just very flawed. But they're acknowledging that and that she is not in the right, much like Greymane. They aren't downplaying the fact they are basically the driving force for this, and the presence of Kul Tiras could give it an interesting angle.
For now. Mark my words bro', I'm not even gonna pretend to be surprised when they make sylvanas evil and kill her off. Her replacement may as well just wear a star trek patented red shirt when he or she becomes warchief. For all the good that position does to anyone who gets it.
Like I said, I suspect the true end game boss will be N'Zoth and maybe Azshera. We got all the elements. Island based new zones, major conflict, and really, exploring the only still grey parts of the map left in the game. Even the name of the expansion implies it, and after this one, what's left of Azeroth? We're kind of bloating the map at this point.
Meanwhile you'd need a google-doc spreadsheet to count all the many undeniably evil and dishonorable actions the horde has done starting at the broken front in WOTLK. Its been so many I've simply lost counting, but they have to be hovering around the five dozen at this point.
As much as this SHOULD be a gray vs gray conflict, I simply have few reasons to believe it will be. Blizzard's track record points at them seeing the horde as the secondary villain fodder for players to beat while the REAL threats warm up for their arrival.
Yeah. Unfortunately, the Horde has always had a lot of baggage. And unfortunately, after Thrall turned into a drifter hobo, it kept overtaking them. That's why I really hope this expansion gives Sylvanas some closure. The Forsaken have always been...well, $%^&s. Ideally, Sylvanas might actually start taking a long view from being warchief, rather than obsessing over her own petty $%^&.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually, all the dungeons will be available to both sides. Much like how the shadowmoon burial grounds was available to horde players, and the bloodmaul slag mines were available to alliance players back in WoD, despite being located in zones that otherwise had no content for the other faction.Yeah..but Allies will probably not get any story for it beyond 'Kill Zul, he's evil' quest in the dungeon itself, unlike the Horde who will be doing whatever they are doing to get the Zandalari to ally with them.
Post by
Rankkor
Actually, all the dungeons will be available to both sides. Much like how the shadowmoon burial grounds was available to horde players, and the bloodmaul slag mines were available to alliance players back in WoD, despite being located in zones that otherwise had no content for the other faction.Yeah..but Allies will probably not get any story for it beyond 'Kill Zul, he's evil' quest in the dungeon itself, unlike the Horde who will be doing whatever they are doing to get the Zandalari to ally with them.
Who knows. There's 10 dungeons at launch and they already said that out of those 10, 4 of them will be done by alliance players as they level up in Kul'tiras, 4 of them will be done by horde players as they level up in Zandalar, and 2 of them will be max-level dungeons, one in each continent that we only do at the level cap.
If zul is in one of those two dungeons, its entirely possible that the questchain where we dispense some justice on him is available to both sides.
After all, they said that there WILL be neutral quests in BfA. Not every single quest in Kul'tiras will be for alliance players, and likewise, not every single quest in zandalar will be for the horde. So maybe wait for the beta on this regard, because this coin is still up in the air.
Whereas the horde has never been conveniently provided with a reasonable excuse for their aggression. Not once. When the horde kicks a puppy, they do it just for fun and giggles. When the alliance kicks a puppy, they're provided with as many justifications and moral excuses to make it passable or acceptable (see the purge of dalaran, or the guy in charge of the burning of taurajo for example).
This is good though, because for once, they are defending themselves. It adds an excellent dynamic to the issue in that, while maybe not always in the right, Sylvanas is for once legitimately defending her kingdom.
Depends A LOT on the context though. Because if the attack on lordaeron is simply a reprisal for the burning of Teldrassil (which, lets be honest, it has a very high chance of it being so, given that they explicitly said it takes place AFTER said burning) then she's not defending herself. She's simply receiving a reprisal for her unwarranted act of aggression. Once again putting my faction as the warmongering brutish bad guys. See where my concerns are coming from?
Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right. I WANT you to be right, just once I'd like to have a faction conflict where I can genuinely root for my side. Just once. But I'm just not very optimistic given our current track record.
Like I said, I suspect the true end game boss will be N'Zoth and maybe Azshera. We got all the elements. Island based new zones, major conflict, and really, exploring the only still grey parts of the map left in the game. Even the name of the expansion implies it, and after this one, what's left of Azeroth? We're kind of bloating the map at this point.
Well, Aszhara is not gonna be the end boss. They said so in an interview. She's likely going to be the 8.2 boss. The equivalent of Kil'jaeden for BfA. N'zoth however seems like a good candidate for end-boss, specially with the whole azerothian wound thing going on. But even if Sylvanas is not the end boss of BfA, that's not the only way for a character to die. After all, Vol'jin, Cairne, and several others have died without becoming bosses. I just don't give Sylvanas many odds of making it out of this one alive. I'm actually going to be surprised if she does.
Meanwhile you'd need a google-doc spreadsheet to count all the many undeniably evil and dishonorable actions the horde has done starting at the broken front in WOTLK. Its been so many I've simply lost counting, but they have to be hovering around the five dozen at this point.
As much as this SHOULD be a gray vs gray conflict, I simply have few reasons to believe it will be. Blizzard's track record points at them seeing the horde as the secondary villain fodder for players to beat while the REAL threats warm up for their arrival.
Yeah. Unfortunately, the Horde has always had a lot of baggage. And unfortunately, after Thrall turned into a drifter hobo, it kept overtaking them. That's why I really hope this expansion gives Sylvanas some closure. The Forsaken have always been...well, $%^&s. Ideally, Sylvanas might actually start taking a long view from being warchief, rather than obsessing over her own petty $%^&.
Personally, I'd prefer it if they gave the forsaken a different direction. I liked where they were going with them in WOTLK, when putress developed a cure for the earlier stages of undeath, and it would have been SO awesome if they had kept that angle going forward. Because as they stand right now, I agree with you, they don't have much reason for keeping their existence. Their curse has only downsides, hardly any benefits.
Meanwhile, the alliance has two cursed races (Worgens and soon Void Elves) and their curse seems to be made of nothing but benefits. Worgens can even shift out of wolf form at will. It would be nice if Forsaken had something similar to that at hand. But it would require a complete rework on how the race looks and works, and while not impossible, I deem it unlikely at best.
And yes, all of this started when Thrall became a drifter hobo >_> just why did they have to do that? the best years of the horde were back when he was the badass plate-clad shaman warrior from Lord of the Clans. These days he's just sad.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually, all the dungeons will be available to both sides. Much like how the shadowmoon burial grounds was available to horde players, and the bloodmaul slag mines were available to alliance players back in WoD, despite being located in zones that otherwise had no content for the other faction.Yeah..but Allies will probably not get any story for it beyond 'Kill Zul, he's evil' quest in the dungeon itself, unlike the Horde who will be doing whatever they are doing to get the Zandalari to ally with them.
Who knows. There's 10 dungeons at launch and they already said that out of those 10, 4 of them will be done by alliance players as they level up in Kul'tiras, 4 of them will be done by horde players as they level up in Zandalar, and 2 of them will be max-level dungeons, one in each continent that we only do at the level cap.
If zul is in one of those two dungeons, its entirely possible that the questchain where we dispense some justice on him is available to both sides.
After all, they said that there WILL be neutral quests in BfA. Not every single quest in Kul'tiras will be for alliance players, and likewise, not every single quest in zandalar will be for the horde. So maybe wait for the beta on this regard, because this coin is still up in the air.Yeah you are giving them too much credit; Zul will probably be the 'big bad' of the Zandalari zones, with the Horde fighting against his forces and driving him to whatever he's going to go ground....and then their quests in the dungeon will be finishing it up. Alliance will probably get 'Oh hey, the leader of the Zandalari is in this place, go kill him please' quest only and that sucks because the Alliance deserves an ending to the Zandalari issues that have been happening since Mists.
Also, 50 bucks that the Zandalari who rebels and joins up with the Horde is the same Zandalari woman that wanted to bang Vol'jin in Shadow of the Horde, and that's what they meant in the panel about the echoes of Vol'jin coming into play in the expansion, as those Zandalari who survived the big assault in the book remember what the troll leader did and they'll be so impressed by it, that it'll make them turn against the King and join up with the rag tag Horde forces.
Post by
Rankkor
Yeah you are giving them too much credit; Zul will probably be the 'big bad' of the Zandalari zones, with the Horde fighting against his forces and driving him to whatever he's going to go ground....and then their quests in the dungeon will be finishing it up.
Well, even if this is the case, so what? Its little different to how horde players never interacted with, nor had any quest involvement with Ner'zhul during WoD, he was confronted only by alliance players, and we only got to see a fragment of the whole thing on his dungeon at max level.
Its not like alliance players won't have exclusive content in BfA either. The Zul sub-plot may be horde exclusive, but the Kul'tiras sub-plot, everything that's happened there since the last time we've seen this place, and everything revolving Jaina's family, is going to be 100% alliance-exclusive. And horde players wont even be able to glimpse at it in a dungeon unlike your case with Zul.
Edit: I'd also like to add that currently, the dungeon list on wowhead marks FOUR dungeons on Kul'tiras, but only two in Zandalar (of which Uldir is a raid, and where the main bad guys are related to the titans and old gods, and the other one Atal'Dazar doesn't have Zul listed as a boss).(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
morginar
Isn't horde going to get a vol'jin storyline (no idea how as he is dead) also there is ofc warchief sylvanas and anduin for their factions.
Maybe we can finaly figure out what the devil the loa want from her. The book slams down all the speculations of conspiracy on sylvanas part, as she curse the loa for her role. Possibly the loa of death can explain her afterlife, why etc. There is conspiracy here too on valks and the saronite yogging her.
Edit:
Alliance
Freehold – Located in Tiragarde Sound, Freehold is full of bandits, thieves, and other denizens of the underworld.
Waycrest Manor – Located in Drustvar, Waycrest Manor was the ancestral home of one of the most powerful families in Kul Tiras.
Tol Dagor – This prison island is located off the coast of Kul Tiras.
Shrine of the Storm – Located in Stormsong Valley, priests of the sea bless newly constructed ships before they set out on their journeys across the ocean.
Siege of Boralus – Like the Court of Stars dungeon, this will be a maximum level dungeon set in the cityscape of the Tiragarde’s capital, Boralus.
Horde
Atal’Dazar – Located in Zandalar and nestled in the mountains of Zuldazar, Atal’Dazar is the ancient resting place of the Zandalari kings and home to a sect of trolls engaged in dark rituals—along with dinosaurs, undead, and undead dinosaurs.
Temple of Sethraliss – Located in Vol’dun, this temple is a sacred place to the snake-like Sethrak people.
The Underrot – Located in Nazmir, this subterranean dungeon is a primary source of corruption in Zandalar.
King’s Rest – Located within Atal’Dazar, this is the interior tomb of ancient kings who have been put to rest.
Kezan – This maximum-level dungeon is a bit further afield from Kul Tiras and Zandalar. The goblins have heard word of Azerite and its value and have started digging deep into Azeroth to gain more of it. Players will return to Kezan after years away to discover how it’s changed.
That'd be the dungeons.
Doesn't look like Zul is inside the dungeons, so Zul'again or questboss?
Post by
Adamsm
I'd like to see the end of the Zandalari story, but honestly, I'm so burned out on Alts in WoW that I'd probably never get a Horde toon up there. Sure, there should be separate content for each faction, but something like that, with a major force of the reborn Zandalar from Cata and Mists....and one group is cut out of taking him down at the end.
I agree that there should have been more overlap in Shadowmoon and Frostridge for both factions; each group was cut out of questing in Draenor that could have seen more things between them. At this point in the game I'm getting burned out on alts in WoW, which is sad as I've had multiple toons since I started playing it. The Zandalar is the only thing that caught my interest in the entire release for Battle, but to be honest, I don't have any motivation to grind up a Horde through Legion to do it, and that makes me sad.
But, knowing Blizzard, it'll probably be wrapped up in a book or something and all of my 'whining' will be for naught.
Post by
Rankkor
I'd like to see the end of the Zandalari story, but honestly, I'm so burned out on Alts in WoW that I'd probably never get a Horde toon up there.
Why? its not like leveling an alt would take too much time. Hell, you can skip all the previous expacs if you just make a horde demon hunter and see the horde story through that. Play whichever toon is your main as alliance, and a demon hunter as horde. Problem fixed.
I don't have any motivation to grind up a Horde through Legion to do it, and that makes me sad.
Who says you have to? do you forget that you receive a free 110 boost when you purchase BfA? That and the demon hunter are pretty quick and easy ways to get an alt on the opposite faction to see the content of the other side.
Sure, there should be separate content for each faction, but something like that, with a major force of the reborn Zandalar from Cata and Mists....and one group is cut out of taking him down at the end.
Also to be fair, everything revolving the zandalari is inherently a horde story. The only reason the alliance is included in the mix is because of parity of content, nothing more. Zul only tried to recruit Vol'jin into his side after all, and his attacks centered on troll cities that are for the most part in horde territory.
Its little different to how this entire Army of Light business (and legion as a whole) has felt more like an alliance story that the horde is just allowed to tag along, with little in the way of protagonism.
That's a little saying we have over here "Si es igual, no es trampa." (Its not cheating if you do it too). There's large overall stories that have been centered around the horde, where alliance players are just spectators, and stories centered around the alliance, where the horde is the spectators.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah but when they invaded Pandaria, both of the factions fought against them, and you had Silver Covenant forces showing up outside of ZA, and for ZG both groups have presence there in the zone while it's the Steamwheedle who give you the actual quests in the instance in Cata.
And yes there is a boost; but when I'm leveling I like talking with my guild so the Horde alt would be alone and nothing to take my focus away from the tedium of the grind. I don't know, maybe I'll get into Beta again and I can just do it that way.
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