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Post by
Rankkor
The Scarlets were always belligerant and were the aggressors every. Time.
Ohh and the vrykul aren't? Because every run up we've had with them hasn't been filled with anything other than violence?
Big difference here Rank. Whitemane was a constant threat to everyone. Eyir? She locks herself in a vault and only lets a champion enter to ascend them.
Whitemane was a constant threat to everyone, and so are these vrykul. How many times must I repeat it? The Wardens have kill-on-sight bounties for them. Not just the ones following skovald, ALL OF THEM. Yes, this includes the valkiria of Skold-Ashl. Because they are a menace to the rest of the broken isles.
As for that dagger. Are you serious? Your making an equivalent of taking an old god dagger being used to try and summon a thing called Zakajz the Corruptor to enslaving a titan watcher?
Eyir is not a titan watcher. Odyn is a titan watcher. Eyir is just someone he empowered, one among many. Also just because someone is empowered by the titans, doesn't mean they get moral highgrounds here, or immunity to attacks, after all, while Eyir herself wasn't doing much, her valkiria were quite the dangerous threat to the rest of the island.
Because of this disconnect. Because you're saying it's justified for Sylvanas to sail into this camp of Vyrkul, who have nothing to do with Skovold, try and wipe out the village, and enslave their god, because they are Vyrkul, and therefore are always the aggressors.
First off, Sylvanas wasn't trying to wipe out the village. If that was the case, she would have plagued bombed it to oblivion. She wanted to get in, take Eyir, and get out. Nothing more, nothing less. She doesn't order you to burn every building, and to hunt down every valkyria down. The Wardens however, DO want to wipe out the village, because they consider those women to be dangerous criminals. And for very good reasons.
Because Skovold is waging a war, and every step through Stormheim we are being told he has betrayed his culture. Because one of the few clans who HAVEN'T joined him was just attacked by Sylvanas, and you're saying it's fine for her to do it, because everyone hates them and they're vyrkul.
Just because she hasn't joined in with skovald, doesn't mean they're harmless little doves. The Tideskorn haven't joined up with him, and yet they're incredibly dangerous and vicious to everyone. The elite ones on that tiny island to the north haven't joined up with him, yet the kirin tor, the wardens, and odyn send you up there to kill them too. The Vampyr one near the beach hasn't joined up with him either, and yet he's also a menace.
Understand that what you're trying to defend here, is not an actual neutral race that wants to coexist with the rest of azeroth. These guys are not Tuskkar, they're not Taunka, they're not NEUTRAL. They're people who have proven time and again that they have no desire to coexist with the rest of azeroth. And they are belligerent to everyone they meet.
That is what I have a problem with. I don't give a damn that it's Sylvanas doing it, but I do care how it's being defended. You love orcs so much. But when they were nothing but ravenous monsters pouring through the Dark Portal and burning whole kingdoms, you say it was wrong for the Alliance to think of just killing them all. It's double standards Rank. And I hate hypocrisy.
Different context. WHILE they were ravenous monsters burning kingdoms, yes, it was okay to attempt to exterminate them all. But when the war was over, the alliance found out that this was not the case. The orcs slumped down into a lethargy, and they found out that the demon corruption was behind a lot of their actions. They were harmless, and defenseless. Once they were beaten, they posed no threat to anyone else, and yet they still wanted to murder them in cold blood.
The vrykul are not like that. They're aggressive and belligerent, and hellbent in attacking everything with a pulse that comes within their eyesight. And even then, Sylvanas is not interested in wiping them out, or conquering their land. She seeks a power they have, and mostly to preserve the lives of herself and her subjects. Wowpedia says that sylvanas intends to subjugate eyir and force her to make more valkyr, but that's just speculation. She never flat out tells us that's the plan. While that's a reasonable guess to make, that's all it is, a guess.
If its okay to attack the Scarlet Crusade to take something they have, if its okay to attack the Shadow Council to take something they have, if its okay to attack the twilight hammer to take something they have, then its also totally okay to attack the valkyria of skold-ashl to take something they have as well.
The warrior players attack the tideskorn tribe to obtain the blades of helya (Fury artifact), they attack another vrykul tribe (neither affiliated with Skovald) to take the prot artifact as well. And prot paladins attack yet another vrykul tribe for their artifact too. And you dont' have a problem with this? They've safekept these relics for probably hundreds of years, but we killed them, because we need them more. Its not evil or reprehensible because we're not taking these relics from peaceful and reasonable folks, we're taking them from a pack of warmongers who have proven to be a menace to the rest of the world time and again.
Prot warriors, Fury Warriors, Prot paladins, BM Hunters, and Survival Hunters, all of them attack a lot of vrykul tribes, none of whom are aligned with Skovald, for the specific and exclusive purpose of taking powerful relics they've safeguarded for centuries. Exclusively because we need them more. Why is this not a problem, but sylvanas doing the same suddenly is?
Arms Warriors, holy paladins, and Shadow Priests do the same against the twilight hammer. Resto Shamans do the same against the Naga. Destro locks do the same against the shadow council. Disc Priests and Arcane mages do the same against the Ethereum. Outlaw Rogues do the same against an undead pirate. And WW monks do the same against Air Elementals. The rest of the classes do it against demons.
Why are all of these okay but what sylvanas is doing isn't? Again, its not like she's trying to wipe them out. They have something she wants and she's taking it. No different than when we storm the other vrykul tribes for their precious artifacts.
Is it wrong to enslave a living being and force her to do your will? Sure, it is, but then again, Odyn did it to Helya, and you're in no hurry to defend her, even comparing her to satan. So who's the one with double standards here?
Your making an equivalent of taking an old god dagger being used to try and summon a thing called Zakajz the Corruptor to enslaving a titan watcher?
Ohh so you'd feel more comfortable if Eyir was ugly, and had a nasty title like Eyir the childeater? I mean she's only noble and boo-hoo poor victim because she's pretty and wields holy magic? Come on man :S
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Yeah, I think I'm done. This is getting really polarizing and it's starting to make less and less sense as we devolve into our arguments. I'm going to drop it now.
Post by
Rankkor
Suit yourself. I don't see how killing other vrykul tribes for their artifacts is okay for so many classes, but then when sylvanas is doing the same, its suddenly appalling.
On the same token, I don't get why enslaving Eyir is supposed to be this morally murky affair, but then Helya who was also enslaved by Odyn is treated as wow's equivalent of satan.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Alright then.
On another topic, so it seems Wrathion is not, in fact, the last or even the first purified black dragon. A really weird thing for Blizzard to do but I have to say kind of interesting.
Post by
Rankkor
Alright then.
On another topic, so it seems Wrathion is not, in fact, the last or even the first purified black dragon. A really weird thing for Blizzard to do but I have to say kind of interesting.
The funny part about that is that on the alpha, it WAS Wrathion on that quest. But then that brought up a lot of unexplained plot holes. Such as:
Ebonhorn is supposed to be this ancient chieftain advisor that has been with the highmountain tauren since the war of the ancients. Yet Wrathion was only born like 3 years ago. So Ebonhorn being secretly Wrathion made no sense. In the original version of that quest, you end up discovering a clutch of uncorrupted black dragon eggs that Wrathion was trying to procure, in order to rebuild the black dragonflight.
Alas, all of that is non-canon now. It does mean however that not only Wrathion is no longer the last black dragon alive, he's not even the most powerful either, as a 3-year old whelp isn't gonna be anywhere near as powerful as an ancient wyrm that has been alive and kicking for the past 10 millenia.
Frankly, rather than retconning the whole thing, I wish they had made a few adjustments, and simply kept forward with the original plot. Seems more interesting to me IMO.
Post by
oneforthemoney
The funny part about that is that on the alpha, it WAS Wrathion on that quest. But then that brought up a lot of unexplained plot holes. Such as:
Frankly, rather than retconning the whole thing, I wish they had made a few adjustments, and simply kept forward with the original plot. Seems more interesting to me IMO.
Have to agree with you. Not only that, but it doesn't really add that much to the storyline there. I mean, it turns out he's an uncorrupted black dragon who has supported the Highmountain tribe for generations.
...And?
It just seems like this big thing that doesn't really connect to anything else, other than that Deathwing was also a black. It feels like it should have been more significant than it was. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea. It just felt a little underwhelming in the context of the event.
Also, I do hope Wrathion does show up at some point. Beating the Legion is the cause he's attached himself to quite vigorously, so for him to be absent during the campaign seems a little odd.
Post by
morginar
Add Baron Sablemane to that list. We need a black dragon reunion.
Post by
Rankkor
Holy Effing Crap!!!!!!! O_O
So I just finished the DK campaign, and good lord, I am speechless. This quest was quite the punch in the gut for me, for a lot of good reasons.
So Morginar, you and I had quite the heated debate a while back, regarding the morality on what the death knights are doing in their campaign, namely, bringing back the four horsemen of the apocalypse, and how it compares to what the forsaken do to survive, with me pointing out that the knights of the ebon blade were on the moral high ground as they don't force the curse of undeath onto unwilling subjects. Well.......... that's not quite the case anymore.
All datamined material pointed towards Tirion Fordring being the final Horseman. First you bring back Nazgrim, then you bring back Thoras Trollbane. Then you bring back Whitemane. And for last, you were meant to bring back Tirion. I was disappointed that almost all the horsemen were human, but it is a neat balance, with 1 horde horsemen, 1 alliance, one neutral from an evil faction (scarlet crusade) and one neutral from a good faction (Argent Crusade).
Well it turns out that the argent crusade would not give up Tirion's body willingly. So the solution of the Ebon Blade was...... to attack Light's Hope Chapel. Yes, again.
=(
That was completely heartwrenching for me to do. I can understand why they did it, they needed a fourth horseman, the crusade would never let us access the body willingly, and ultimately, its Tirion's decision if he wants to come back or not, the crusade should have left him make the choice. Instead, both sides refused to compromise, The crusade refused to allow the Ebon Blade to ask, and the Ebon Blade refused to look for another candidate. So both sides come to blow.
The final mission of the DK campaign is a full blown assault on light's hope chapel, which is something I most certainly DO NOT find okay. =/ Despite my lengthy rant about us attacking other people to get their stuff during the artifact quest, those were criminals, cultists, and warmongering murderers. These are paladins, who are dedicating their lives to the healing of the world, and saving lives, it was NOT okay to just invade light's hope chapel and kill dozens of paladins, just to have an audience with Tirion.
But it gets worse.
As I delved deeper into the chapel, I had to battle not just the neutral argent champions, but also blood knights, and sunwalkers. This hit me hard, as in my head canon, my DK is a former blood knight herself. And the final boss of the DK campaign is none other than Lady Liandrin herself. Who on my DK's backstory is her former master. That was something I really didn't enjoy, and it felt awful to have to fight her. Thank goodness I didn't have to kill her. The campaign also kinda serves to highlight just how grotesquely powerful the player DK has become.
The first time the scourge attacked light's hope chapel, they sent an army, and it lost. The second time, they sent an elite army (Ebon Blade) backed by an even bigger army of disposable mooks, and while they came somewhat closer to victory than last time, they still lost. This time, it was only 5 people. Darion, Nazgrim, Whitemane, Trollbane, and the player. And even then, the other 4 remained mostly in the background, the player single-handedly manages to strike deep into light's hope, storm the inside of their inner sanctum, makes her way to the mausoleum of light, bests the
elite highguard of the silver hand
, and then engages in a duel one-on-one against Liandrin herself.
But the worst part is that its all for nothing. After all the paladins are slain, Maxwell and Liandrin are incapacitated, and I proceed to raise tirion from the grave, a MASSIVE surge of light envelops the chapel, Liandrin says that the light protects this hallowed ground in which even the lich king was powerless, and all the Ebon Blade knights are stunned. Before the light can disintegrate us, Darion opens a death gate, mass-death-grip us all into it, and barely manages to get in himself before he's killed by the light.
In the end, Darion is dead, Tirion isn't resurrected, And the Lich King, the very guy who sent us there in the first place, says that "death is for the living, it has no power over the damned" and says "your fourth horseman lays before you". And so, Darion, not Tirion, becomes the last Horseman.
Makes me wonder why the hell did we even go to light's hope chapel in the first place. If darion was a suitable replacement, you'd think we could have gone with that, instead of needlessly killing so many heroes over nothing.
This also sets up potential repercussions down the line. The whole point of the Class Orders is that while the alliance and the horde are engaged in their petty squabbles and old grudges, the representatives of the classes are focused on the real threat here. But on the DK campaign, the Death Knight order, attacks the paladin order. I haven't done the paladin questline yet to see if this is reflected on their side, or even mentioned (The Highlord of the silver hand AKA; The player, is obviously not present, but I'm wondering if the assault itself will be mentioned to paladin players) but its possible that just as we have faction conflict, we may have class conflict as well.
We shall see. In the meantime, the knights of the ebon blade, and the knights of the silver hand, are pretty much irrevocably enemies, all because the lich king gave a stupid order, and both sides refused to look for alternate solutions (Paladins allowing the DKs to just ask tirion if he wants to come back, DKs just looking for another horseman).
Dammit blizz. This one hurt right in the feels. =( Now I feel like a massive jerk.
Post by
morginar
Thats evil. Though when he is your quest giver...
At Least the "lich queen" thing can stop now. There is already someone wearing it giving credit to it's throne.
Post by
Skreeran
Ugh, I wish I could play Legionnnnn... ;_; ;_; ;_;
Post by
Rankkor
Thats evil.
Much as it pains me to say it..... yep, it is. I was NOT okay with what went on in that quest.
Ugh, I wish I could play Legionnnnn... ;_; ;_; ;_;
=( I wish you were here too bro', this is seriously THE BEST blizzard has been in years. The difference in quality is just stellar.
Post by
1683871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
morginar
Or Ner'zhul never died and remained in the headpiece.
Post by
Rankkor
Or Ner'zhul never died and remained in the headpiece.
You're actually closer than you think. When getting the frost DK artifact, you can see that what little remains of arthas and nerzhul inhabit the blade. And at one point you have to get inside frostmourne and beat down the last traces of Arthas out of the sword, but nerzhul is still there. Of course, if he's there, that means he's (probably) not in the helm of damnation, so who's pulling bolvar's strings? Assuming that the whole POINTLESS attack on light's hope was premeditated.
In other news, I'm doing the paladin campaign now.
After that DK ending, I just HAVE to know if they reference the attack at all. I don't think we're gonna actually repel it as a paladin, but I'm hoping its at least mentioned. I mean come on, the leadership of the ebon blade went to light's hope chapel, slayed dozens of paladins, breached towards the inner sanctum, killed the elite highguard of the silver hand, and beat Tyrosus and Liandrin to within inches of their lives. This is too big to NOT mention in some form.
I'll let you guys know what I find out. Unless someone beat me to it xD
Post by
morginar
Or Ner'zhul never died and remained in the headpiece.
You're actually closer than you think. When getting the frost DK artifact, you can see that what little remains of arthas and nerzhul inhabit the blade. And at one point you have to get inside frostmourne and beat down the last traces of Arthas out of the sword, but nerzhul is still there. Of course, if he's there, that means he's (probably) not in the helm of damnation, so who's pulling bolvar's strings? Assuming that the whole POINTLESS attack on light's hope was premeditated.
Wait, so Arthas soul is inside of Frostmourne? Does that mean that when Sylvanas died her soul went there too? Thats some afterlife she got there.
It's possible Ner'zhul soul is fragmented (like voldemort). One part in the sword. That might be how Ner'zhul talked to Arthas in wc3 and empowered him. And the rest in the helmet. Might be why the pc accepts these quests. At least frost dks.
Post by
1683871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
Hey Rank.
So I was exploring around the Broken Shore and non-instanced Eye of Azshara. And you wouldn't know anything about this, would you?
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j460/Logan_Emery/WoWScrnShot_090916_204541_zpss7chdamn.jpg
Post by
Rankkor
I'm actually pretty bitter about that.
What you're looking at right there, is our class hall. Yep, while everyone else gets a shiny NEW place to call home, we get the same ol' same ol' place we've been using for the past 7 years.
Completely unmodified in any way whatsoever.
I get that absolutely nothing is more fitting as a base for a Death Knight than a necropolis, I truly do, But i'm extremely disappointed that they couldn't even do ONE tiny modification to the Ebon Hold at all. I was expecting at least for it to be evolved to the next tier in scourge architecture (much like how Naxxramas was a Black Citadel, rather than a basic necropolis).
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