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Post by
Rankkor
Now, I know you're going to try arguing that she won't betray the horde, because what this really boils down to is that she's your "cute little BE female" and you don't want to see her that way
OMG.
What is it with your obsession with this topic? I think I've proven time and again that I
DO NOT
judge characters based on their physical attractiveness or wether or not they're cute, or ugly.
Jaina is easily one of the most attractive women in wow, and yet she's currently sitting at number one in my "people I want to see dead" list. Sylvanas is also one of the most oversexualized characters in the game (Though they are toning that down slightly in legion, at least her armor is less revealing) and I am most certainly
NOT
a fan of her in the slightest, and despite my fervent love and passion for the horde, I'm easily one of her harshest critics.
Me, I've wanted her gone from the horde for a long time, basically since all the crap she did in Gilneas, which more or less besmirched our honor and integrity, and it only got worse from there, with her antics in the Western Plaguelands, her antics in Warcrimes, etc. But now that she's warchief? I'm hoping she doesn't go evil. But not for the reason you think.
The sole reason I hope she doesn't turn evil and betray us, is because if she does, then we have to put her down, which will mean what, the FOURTH warchief in a row we lose? Just once I'd like to go through one expansion without having a warchief-switcheroo. We're going through them like cigarettes at this point. From Thrall to Garrosh, then Garrosh to Vol'jin, then Vol'jin to Sylvanas. Enough is enough. I just want blizzard to pick a warchief,
ANY
warchief, and for the love of the naaru's sake,
STICK WITH IT
, and *gasp* actually make him or her (I honestly don't care in the slightest about their gender, I wanna follow them, not bang them) a decent warchief we can be proud of, instead of an abusive jerk that treats us like crap and eventually goes down the slippery rope.
Besides, out of the current leadership of the horde, she's the only last remaining OG leader of the horde we have left, now that Cairne is dead, Vol'jin is dead, and Thrall for all intents and purposes is dead (Not a single shred of the character he once was remaining, no longer leading jack squat, no longer has doomhammer, barely has shamanisitc powers, no longer has hair, or autonomy in his own actions, everything he does depending soelely on the one holding his chain). If she's gone, who we have left? Baine, Lor'themar, and Gallywix. Ohh joy.
As for sylvanas' reign, she already began with the wrong foot. The very first thing she say to me, a proven hero of the horde, a veteran of countless campaigns, with a history record longer than most senior officers on the horde, a loyal and staunch frontline general who has personally ended several of our enemies, is that she has no time to deal with me, and that I should count myself lucky that she doesn't shoot me in the face.
Bear in mind that these words of her towards me, are said as I am pledging my support of her cause. So yeah, as far as first impressions go, she already ruined that one.
So no, I'm not hoping she lives because "She's a cutie", there are several cuties in this game (male and female, on BOTH factions) that I want to see dead in rather grizzly ways, I expect her to do us proud as warchief because I am sick and tired of the warchief position becoming a joke over the years, and just once I'd like to see someone stepping up that can actually measure up to the expectations required of the position.
We clear?(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
The way I see it, it's prophecy because foreshadowing is hard. It's the same thing with Jaina getting picked to lead the Kirin Tor on account of some papers found written by a dragon, and we all saw how that turned out. Prophecy and the like is not a bad tool, but it's used poorly here because all it's doing is trying to add weight to a decision that makes little sense. 'It's Prophecy!' is what the writer says when he forgot to give a REASON! I mean, I get the pool of Horde leadership is a bit shallow at this point. We either throw Thrall back in there, or Baine.
However, I do think that Sylvanas was the right choice, based on actual facts. Baine is a leader in the Horde, but really, he leads the smallest faction, and only came into said role maybe three years ago. He wouldn't have what it takes experience wise to run the size of war needed to fight the Legion. Sylvanas has spent literally two lifetimes fighting as the underdog. She is the best choice, because other than her, we have Baine, or Gallywix to choose from.
But that's too complex a decision for Blizz to get across I guess, so let's go with 'because ghosts said so'.
Post by
Rankkor
You left Lor'themar out in that post money :P
I know he's been a relative unknown for most of the game, but he was spectacular in MoP. Very reluctantly, I must admit that sylvanas has more experience, both as a political leader and a battlefront general, than he does, even if her social skills frigging SUCK, but he would have been a pretty decent second choice.
Because Baine, bless his heart, is simply not prepared for this, and Gallywix........ honest to god I have no idea why is he even here anyways. The guy practically doesn't exist. Its been six years since he was introduced and he is STILL nowhere in the world except in a handful of cameos you can count in one hand (Without using all your fingers), has even worse social skills than sylvanas does (Which is quite impressive if you think about it) and is only alive because of the most glaring blatant and facepalm-inducing plot hole ever put in the horde.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Lor'themar
Good point Rank. Yeah, I had forgotten him honestly. But I think the same problem applies for him as Baine. He might have more experience, but yeah. In terms of number and ability to command, he's still no Sylvanas.
Post by
Atik
*sits in the corner hugging my Sylvanas plushie*
Post by
oneforthemoney
Okay, so played the Broken Shore yesterday on Alliance, and have to see, I can certainly understand why Genn thinks Sylvanas betrayed them. From their perspective, it really did not look good and can very easily be interperted differently. Also, interesting how Sylvanas referred to Varian during the event. Almost seemed to have respect there.
As well, after playing it, I am seriously hyped for Legion. That cinematic was awesome and it was great seeing faction leaders who only got passing mention of late actually doing something. I love Mekkatorque's power armour and Genn's design. Not to mention Gul'Dan being the villain WoW has dearly missed for a long time. All the scheming, delighted evil in a twisted package we need to give Legion a face worth hating.
Post by
Atik
For real here, after watching both cinematics.
Why did the Warcraft movie have real actors at all? They literally should have just smoothed out the models and whatnot they use for the ingame cutscenes, and not ignored lore.
Post by
Rankkor
a crazy theory just occured to me. Bear in mind, this is all nothing more than speculation, with a hefty dose of wishful thinking. I am going to be the first to admit that the scenario I'm gonna describe is unlikely at best, flat out impossible at worst, but hear me out.
I'm suspecting that blizzard "could" be doing to the alliance, what they did to the horde in MoP.
What was the main theme of the horde and the alliance in MoP? The horde kept fracturing and dividing itself, while the alliance kept unifying and strengthening themselves.
In 5.1, while on the horde, the elves are thrown under the bus and almost consider leaving the horde altogether, and the trolls go into open rebellion after nearly being purged, the kirin tor rejoins the alliance, and relationships between stormwind and darnassus strengthen after that cringey scenario where Varian teaches a general with 10000 more years of experience than him, one of the most basic lessons of warfare.
In 5.2 the elves also openly rebel against the horde once and for all, while the alliance remains unified.
In 5.3 ALL of the horde cracks apart and civil war erupts, while on the alliance, dwarf clans put aside their centuries-old feuds and unite under one banner for the greater good.
Even in 5.4, after all is said and done and we have a new warchief, the horde is not entirely unified, Sylvanas flat out says she wont follow Vol'jin (Though she did, in the broken shore) and the orcs don't even have a unanimous leader, since Thrall is still not stepping back up to the position of chieftain, forcing an aged and retired soldier to fill the gap. While the alliance remains as unified as ever.
Now fastforward to post-broken shore. What happens?
Horde gets a new warchief, and yet their first and immediate concern is about reorganizing, regrouping, and starting to plan the next assault, all of the horde united in solidarity in this moment of dire need, even screaming a proud "FOR VOL'JIN!!!" "FOR THE HORDE!!!!" during his funeral. There are no somber faces, no arguments, no divisions, everyone with the single-minded goal of making the legion pay for what happened.
Meanwhile, alliance gets a new High King, and what happens there? The funeral of Varian is marred by complainings, whining, bickering amongst themselves, and moaning about perceived backstabs betrayals and abandonment issues instead of focusing on the real menace here, which they KNOW they can't defeat by themselves. Jaina directly disobeys the orders of her high king, the Kirin Tor flat out leave the alliance and become neutral once again, Greymane and Rogers also directly disobey anduin in Stormheim, Malfurion is expressing his disapproval at having to work with the illidari, and even greymane's own daughter is against her dad, as she expresses heavy disapproval on his obsession with revenge and even goes to willingly work with horde rogues on the Rogue Class Hall campaign.
In other words, this time the horde is single-mindedly unified, while the alliance is subtly splintering apart. Anduin even says so himself after you give him his dad's letter. "Everything is falling apart".
This leads me to believe that maybe...... just MAAAAAAYBE........ blizzard is planning on doing to the alliance what they did to the horde in MoP? as the patches roll out, the bickering and in-fighting between the alliance factions becomes more and more pronounced leading up to a potential civil war?
Unlikely at best. Flat out impossible while Kosak is leading the quest team at worst. But there you go. I can dream. I can dream indeed.
Post by
Skreeran
And here I am grinding smithing in Runescape like a chump. Too bad my laptop and internet (not to mention my wallet) aren't up to the task of playing the game, but it does sound like a pretty cool expansion. I'll have to try and keep up to date with what's going on.
Post by
Rankkor
A sub can be maintained by using the wow token, Legion has plenty of new gold sources added to the game, on top of the method I use (Soloing Cata and Wrath raids on 25H and vendoring the drops), which make sustaining a sub a non-issue if you have at least 3 characters at 100 (which is pretty easy given that heirlooms scale to 100, dungeons give a heapload of XP, and the garrison sells cheap pots that increase exp gains by 20%).
The laptop and bad internet connection however are harder obstacles to surmount. =/
Which is a shame because Legion is shaping up to be among the best expansions in this game's history. In troper terms, Legion is the "Wham Episode" for the warcraft franchise. Tons of plot twists are coming, BIG changes with very severe and far reaching repercussions will take place, and nothing will be the same after the dust settles.
I also love how this expansion takes unfinished and untied loose ends from previous expansions and neatly ties them all together in a cohesive and coherent way that fits both the context and the narrative, with a few exceptions.
Post by
Stabhorn
I just did the Alliance side of the Broken Shore, and oh my are there a lot of named demons back in play. I saw Tichondrious, Brutalus, Jaraxxus, Hakkar, the Eredar twins and plenty of new ones. Not to mention that there are probably more I didn't see because of the overwhelming number of named mobs crowding the area.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
I just did the Alliance side of the Broken Shore, and oh my are there a lot of named demons back in play. I saw Tichondrious, Brutalus, Jaraxxus, Hakkar, the Eredar twins and plenty of new ones. Not to mention that there are probably more I didn't see because of the overwhelming number of named mobs crowding the area.
Done it twice now. Far as I can tell, almost every single raid-boss-tier demon that was actually Legion aligned is there, including a number of the optional fights from various points and the DH starting zone.
It's absolutely bonkers.
Post by
Skreeran
It seems like this is Warcraft 3, World of Warcraft Edition.
I still remember going crazy watching that first teaser for Warcraft 3, and seeing the orc and human get killed by the infernal and going nuts because there was a new faction. I thought it was aliens at first. Which I guess it kinda was.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I'm just glad we're finally fighting something worth our time.
Post by
morginar
As for sylvanas' reign, she already began with the wrong foot. The very first thing she say to me, a proven hero of the horde, a veteran of countless campaigns, with a history record longer than most senior officers on the horde, a loyal and staunch frontline general who has personally ended several of our enemies, is that she has no time to deal with me, and that I should count myself lucky that she doesn't shoot me in the face.
I looked it up. It is a bug. Sylvanas is only supposed to comment dislike to warlocks.
This is for non-locks.
So, the famed <class> from the Broken Shore has returned.
These are dire times. I have need of a hero with your skills.
What say you? Will you help avenge Vol'jin? Will you drive the Legion from our lands?
Gossip For blood and honor, Warchief!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I accept your pledge of loyalty, <name>. The Horde endures!
Lor'themar Theron says: Indeed it shall.
Baine Bloodhoof says: Well, said!
This one is for warlocks.
So, the famed <class> from the Broken Shore has returned.
Your deeds have earned you leniency from my bow, but do not press me. As you can imagine, there is much I must address now that I am Warchief.
We will speak later. You can wait.
Post by
Rankkor
Yea, because I was discussing with Skree a few days ago, how the iron horde was easily one of the biggest jokes as an enemy we've ever faced.
There's NOTHING menacing about them at all. What was initially sold as the most menacing thing about them in the first place? At blizzcon they said: "Imagine the old horde, which nearly conquered the entirety of azeroth, but with the benefits of modern technology, with power armor, steampunk tech, artillery and the like".
What we got instead, was a watered down version of the old horde, who lacked the unstoppable berserking fury of the bloodlust, and also were woefully primitive. Sure, they had guns, and cannons, and even ships and catapults, but that's it. In almost every other aspect they were incredibly primitive. Still relying on animals as vehicles, lacking any form of modern communications, lacking in variety of spellcasters, as they only had shaman......
Come on, the alliance and horde have gunships, bomber planes, helicopters, submarines, guns, rockets, but also tanks, armored troop carriers, Mechs, radios, HOLOGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION, etc.
But the biggest thing that diminished the iron horde as a threat, is that we had already faced a technologically advanced enemy before. One that had FAR more technology than the iron horde, and was backed up by a far more sinister power. The Iron Army in ulduar. Those things had rocket launchers, all sorts of ultra-advanced combat vehicles including mechs, air forces, giant robots and tanks, they had lasers, orbital bombardment satellites, and the forge of wills to produce a near unlimited amount of extra troops, consisting of Iron Vrykuls, Iron Dwarves, and Mechagnomes. They were backed up by an old god, and corrupted titan constructs. They were hosted in the most advanced technocity in azeroth, which makes the Blackrock Foundry look like a neanderthal tribal hut............ and we still beat them up with little effort.
They just don't meassure up to that kind of threat. At least the legion is an enemy I can take seriously. I'd put the iron horde far far far lower in the pecking order, way beneath the legion, the scourge, the twilight hammer, the sha, the old gods, christ, they're almost as bothersome as the gnolls and quillboars.
Post by
morginar
murlocs > Iron horde.
Post by
Atik
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
The Iron Horde were sold to us as a thread I wanted to face. The intro to Draenor is perfect at setting them up. We meet their leaders, we see what they have done to the natives, we see their war machines and forces. They are massive, threatening. You race to the boat and escape wondering how you can hope to take this force down, all while knowing you're now stranded on a foreign world, cut off from your supplies and forces that have won you so many battles before.
And then Khadgar makes a portal to your capital city and you bring the entire might of Azeroth to bear. And, from that point all the way until the end, the Iron Horde becomes of joke.
Even in their own expansion, the Iron Horde pale in comparison to the forces of Skyreach or the Legion. And even THOSE pale in comparison to the forces of Azeroth.
It really just adds to my hatred of Garrisons, because the second it's finished, the expansion has lost all credible threats.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Well, what Blizzard was trying to do with the Iron Horde was literally barbarians with tanks, so I'm not too surprised there. But they missed the brutish strength that the original horde had, and simply went with brutish. They missed the idea they could actually make them threatening, as they felt the need to show the Iron Horde needed the help of the Legion to become a real menace.
Now there are a number of problems with this. The main one is, that's dumb. The second was, for every expansion, there was one big thing that made the enemies threatening. With the Lich King, it was that if we didn't stop him, he would just keep coming back. We had to go to Northrend and beat him there because leaving him alone would literally just make him stronger. He would never get weaker if left alone. Cata had Deathwing, and regardless of all the little schemes to end the world, the fact was the Hammer, Ragnaros, all the rest, they were just the spice. Deathwing could destroy the world. Was destroying it. He needed to end.
Pandaria is a little mixed. Around there I think the issue that came with the Iron Horde started showing up. Sure Garrosh was bad, and pumped with sha was worse, but realistically, he was doomed. He was holed up in Orgrimmar with his troops. We needed to beat him, but mainly to get the Horde back on track. No one but his orcs were helping him. Pandaria was like a number of small menaces that if left unchecked would cause a real problem. Even if just in Pandaria.
The Iron Horde was, simply put, not. They were on Draenor. Not even our Draenor, but one wildly different. The menace of the Horde was that they ran roughshod over everything, burning, pillaging. But the original Horde was only a threat because they came out of the blue, on an unprepared world, and they were all coming, because their world was literally dead. So the entire population was beserking across the lands. The Iron Horde? They couldn't handle their own world yet. In time, maybe, but they played their hands early, and for some reason, tried invading a world that's been at total war for about thirty years, with a small break in between. They were outclassed in every way, lacked the unity of their clans, and were just spectacular failures. I'm amazed they even managed to drive the draenei as far as they did. All the territories they controlled were theirs to begin with. They never managed to actually take anything.
But the unforgivable part was it was pointless. The Iron Horde were self destructing. The ogres were on the verge of turning on them. The Legion was steadily gaining ground. They combusted. There was nothing we needed to do. Not even ending Garrosh was necessary. What was he going to do? He was a warrior. He literally infected the Horde with his failure. If we just held the portal, likely as not he'd burn down the Iron Horde himself. And even after we beat them, what did it accomplish? Literally. Nothing. We saved an alternate world. Who cares? We didn't bring anyone back. No one particularly important from our side died there. Sure Taylor and Maladaar. And? Only Maladaar even died to the Iron Horde. It was a side show at best. And it was hardly the best.
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