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General Lore Discussions
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Post by
oneforthemoney
Interesting bit with Medivh. They seem to have taken a few cues from the movie, like the scene where he's standing on the mountain cliff casting a lightning spell. Good or bad, I suppose we'll see, but I am looking forward to those. I really like the Warlord ones, and getting some backstory for Gul'Dan should be interesting.
Post by
Rankkor
Aye, I liked the ones from Warlords too. Its funny how almost all the supplemental material for Warlords was pretty good. Too bad the actual game stank like a deadfish inside a dead skunk. But the comics (Specially "Gul'dan and the Stranger") the short stories (Specially "Hellscream") and the animated shorts (Specially Kargath's) were really REALLY good.
The two Legion comics so far have been pretty cool, so I'm expecting the same standard of quality from them.
What's on your wish list? both for short stories and for animated shorts?
For me, I'm hoping an animated short on Elisande. And a short story that helps bridge the gap, you know, the perspective of the horde and the alliance as they prepare for war and ready their fleets to send them to the Broken Shore.
Post by
oneforthemoney
To be perfectly honest, I'd like an explanation as to why Khadgar looks to be in his late thirties despite the last time we see him he looked older than Gandalf. And the explanation better be more than 'he shaved'.
Ideally, I hope they bridge things in the cinematics the same way they did with the Warlords shorts, framing it with conversations. But rather than just king chin and tentacle chin, have it varied with different characters in real time, giving us some information on the present situation for the seperate factions: Horde, Alliance and even Legion. That way we can be up to date with events from all sides, current and past.
As for Warlords...yeah. Like we've been saying, the pieces of a great expansion were there. But they were in such a rush to throw it at us, they never got a chance to assemble it properly. So the arrakoa ended up being the best part, despite being technically such a small piece, and the Warlords themselves being cardboard cutouts for us to hit.
Post by
Rankkor
To be perfectly honest, I'd like an explanation as to why Khadgar looks to be in his late thirties despite the last time we see him he looked older than Gandalf. And the explanation better be more than 'he shaved'.
Sadly, there isn't going to be an explanation.
People already voiced this concern in WoD, where Khadgar really looked far younger than he should be, and all blizzard had to say about it was "beards make people look older". We're just supposed to take this drastic change of appearance and pretend that's how he's looked his entire adult life. Even though, as you said, pre-WoD he looked even older than gandalf, whereas now, he just looks slightly older than Varian. Hell, even Greymane looks older than Khadgar at this point.
Ideally, I hope they bridge things in the cinematics the same way they did with the Warlords shorts, framing it with conversations. But rather than just king chin and tentacle chin, have it varied with different characters in real time, giving us some information on the present situation for the seperate factions: Horde, Alliance and even Legion. That way we can be up to date with events from all sides, current and past.
This is my pessimist side speaking, but given that the trailer for Legion ended with Khadgar talking to King Chin, there's a 90% chance that the framing device of the Harbinger animated shorts, is gonna go from "King Chin talking to Tentacle Chin", to "King Chin talking to Magic Chin."
I would love it if we had different narrators. Khadgar had FAR too much of a protagonic role in WoD, and while he's a good character, too much exposure to even a good character can be a bad thing. Ideally, as you said, each short has their own narrator, telling their story to one of their subordinates for X or Y reason.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Hm. Pity. But at least you won't have to suffer him much longer.
I wonder how Anduin will take it?
Post by
Rankkor
Hm. Pity. But at least you won't have to suffer him much longer.
Actually I didn't mind him anymore. I hated him with a capital H back in Wrath, where he was nothing more than an entitled asshat, and a bullying jerk who treated everyone like crap, was nothing more than a rage-fueled jock. He was basically just a slightly less unpleasant human version of Garrosh.
But they "fixed" him more or less in MoP, by transplanting all his negative traits onto other characters. I'm just saddened that the characters in question were all women. They put his bigotry and extremism into Admiral Rogers, his xenophobia and warmongery to Jaina, and his Leeroy Jenkins tendencies to Tyrande. Thus making him look more noble, level-headed, and advocating for peace when it matters.
My problem with him was that he was an absolute hog of the spotlight for the alliance. All plot relevance, of the alliance involved him in some form or another. In fact, he, Anduin, and Jaina more or less hogged the entire spotlight during MoP, to the point that the SoO ending cinematic featured just them and nobody else (Whereas the horde cinematic included every leader, even if some of them lacked voiced lines)
At least with his passing, the focus HAS moved to other alliance leaders. Each of them gets their spot on the limelight in legion, from Velen, Malfurion, Tyrande, to Greymane, among others. Anduin and Jaina have significantly smaller roles in the story, hardly ever seen in the 7.0 quests.
I wonder how Anduin will take it?
Spoilers inside.
Surprisingly well actually. If anything, Greymane and Jaina took it far worse than he did. Though, the former is a grieving warmonger who refuses to let go of past grievances and was just looking for an excuse to re-engage the horde after what happened to Liam, and the latter is a psycho who's slowly slipping down the slippery rope, and has made more face-heel turns than a catwalk model.
Then again, He (anduin) has the whole weight of not just the crown, but also the entire alliance on his hands, since the King of Stormwind is basically the "blue warchief" at this point. During the starting experience when demons crash Varian's funeral, the other alliance leaders (Who have as much authority as him in theory) all form a protective circle around Anduin to guard him, while saying "protect the king". Yes, this includes the likes of Moira, Tyrande, Velen, Malfurion, etc.
So, since he has the fate of the entire alliance in his own hands, he's trying not to be as irrational and emotionally-driven as the lesser leaders who can afford that luxury.
Greymane on the other hand, in his own daughter's words "has become obsessed with revenge, consumed by it" and during a scouting mission, where he is explicitly ordered by anduin to follow the horde, but to NOT attack them unless attacked first, instead chooses to disobey orders, and, along with Admiral Rogers (Who is another who is incapable of letting old hatreds go) opens fire on Sylvanas' fleet in Stormheim, effectively becoming the sole reason why there's hostilities between the horde and the alliance on the next expansion.
As for Jaina, last time I talked about her, I had mentioned how they left unexplained how she leaves dalaran when it allows the horde back in. They explained that, on a quest-chain that happens after the broken shore, Khadgar decides to voice what the rest of the council of six had been thinking for the past few years: That expelling the horde from the kirin tor as a whole was a mistake, as was to break their neutrality, and thus they submit the whole thing to a vote once again. Jaina and Ansirem vote No, the rest of the council (Khadgar, Vargoth, Modera, and Karlain) voted Yes. Jaina then throws a temper tantrum, says she will NOT work side-by-side with the horde ever again, tells the rest of the council to go to hell, and before leaving in a hissy fit, says that when the horde inevitably stabs them in the back, she's gonna be there to say "I told you so".
And we never see her again in legion. At least, I completed every zone except Suramar (of which I've done about 40% so far), and never saw her again.
I'd like to point out that this belligerence, is only from Rogers, Greymane, and Jaina. Nobody else. Malfurion and Tyrande have no problem working side-by-side with us in Val'shara, and Velen has no problem working with us during the quest "bringer of light". Anduin also very explicitly orders Rogers and Greymane to NOT attack the horde on Stormheim unless in self-defense.
Likewise, alliance members that are part of each of the class orders have no problem working for, and aiding members of the horde. This includes the likes of Moira and Calia Menethil, on the priest campaign, Thoras Trollbane on the Death Knight campaign, Nobundo and Mylra on the shaman campaign, Modera and Vargoth on the mage campaign, Greymane's own daughter Tess on the rogue campaign, Broll Bearmantle on the druid campaign, every single alliance paladin on the paladin campaign (Including such figures as The Triumvirate of the Hand of Argus) and
frigging VERESA
on the hunter campaign (And she was almost as bad as Jaina was, but even she knows when its time to let go of old hatreds)
And not one of these fellows has any problem whatsoever with the horde, or with working alongside the horde, or following a horde hero into battle. Despite their respective long-time association with the alliance. (many of these fellows being very old long-timers in the alliance, like Gryan Stoutmantle.)
On an unrelated note, regarding the composition of the new Council of Six following Jaina's little tantrum........
I'm kinda happy/sad about a very specific change they made.
As of WoD, the current membership of the council is: Jaina, Vargoth, Modera, Khadgar, Ansirem, and Karlain.
When jaina left, originally, her replacement was Rommath, as part of the Kirin Tor reparations to silvermoon for the massacre staged by Jaina which they explicitly said left several dead civilians.
Sadly, this was removed, and Jaina's replacement is Kalec, but this has its own positive connotations. He wholly endorses peace and cooperation with the horde and alliance, so I can't imagine this is gonna do many favors with his relationship with Jaina, given that her wet dreams of late involve killing off every single member of the horde.
Maybe this is the beginning of them breaking up? I can dream.
Can I?
Post by
oneforthemoney
Hm. Interesting.
Well I wouldn't be too surprised by their desire to protect Anduin. Let's face it, among them, he's the weakest, but also potentially the most important. Stormwind is pretty much THE military backbone of the Alliance. Seriously, the kingdom is basically Prussia before forming Germany. Not a nation with an army but an army with a nation, considering all the warships, airships, and just plain legions of troops Stormwind flings into every fray. Losing the prince so soon after the king could cripple them, considering there's no one else to take the throne at the moment.
Not that I don't understand why Greymane is pissed, seeing that the one who not only sponsored the worgen curse, but then proceeded to invade his nation, enslave his citizens, used chemical weapons on his city, and is the new warchief of the Horde killed his son in front of him. I mean, I get where he's coming from, and literally no one likes the Forsaken much right now, but time and place man. Time and place.
Post by
Adamsm
Maybe this is the beginning of them breaking up? I can dream.
Can I?Please yes and while they are at.....RESTORE HIS FRICKIN CHARACTER BACK TO WHAT IT WAS BEFORE TIDES OF WAR!
Post by
Rankkor
Not that I don't understand why Greymane is pissed, seeing that the one who not only sponsored the worgen curse, but then proceeded to invade his nation, enslave his citizens, used chemical weapons on his city, and is the new warchief of the Horde killed his son in front of him. I mean, I get where he's coming from, and literally no one likes the Forsaken much right now, but time and place man. Time and place.
Well.......
I can understand his anger too, but at the same time, everything you mentioned (The son dead, the nation invaded, the chemical weapons, etc) All of it happened in a war
that is now over
.
A war that they won
. But no, he wont be satisfied until Sylvanas is specifically dead, even though the forsaken already withdrew from Gilneas and even had to pay reparations to the nation.
There's nothing to gain from this other than satisfying a vendetta, and a personal grievance, which his the mark of a poor leader.
As Baelish said in Game of Thrones "
We only make peace with our enemies, not our friends. That's why we call it "make peace" in the first place.
"
His people were done a grave injustice, and that injustice was repaid in kind, they won the war, they got their kingdom back, they even got concessions from the forsaken. But no, nothing short of the entire extermination of the forsaken will please them.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I don't think it's unreasonable to continue and see the Forsaken as a very serious threat. The main reason for said war hasn't gone away. If anything, it's worse now with the last two conflicts, as the Forsaken have only lost numbers, not gained, Sylvanas is still very unstable, and Gilneas is still very much the first in line if Sylvanas wants war. But I do think when demons are literally falling out of the sky the undead might be a bit of a lesser of two evils, and backstabbing them might not be the best plan.
On the brighter side Rank, it's finally more the Alliance's fault for hostilities between factions now. Hard to deny that.
Post by
Rankkor
I don't think it's unreasonable to continue and see the Forsaken as a very serious threat.
See them as a threat? sure. Refuse to see them as friends? of course. Avoid working side-by-side with them? go ahead. Specifically disobey royal orders and provoke them to attacking you? dumb as hell. He has the right to be upset, but being angry is one thing, and acting out on that anger is another.
Even if the legion wasn't here (Which makes his actions DOUBLE the stupid) he had no right to reignite a war that was only ended a little while ago. Out of nothing but a grudge.
If anything, it's worse now with the last two conflicts, as the Forsaken have only lost numbers, not gained, Sylvanas is still very unstable, and Gilneas is still very much the first in line if Sylvanas wants war.
Its funny because after having done both the horde and the alliance version of Stormheim, the one that looks more unstable is Greymane. Not Sylvanas.
Greymane is, in his own daughter's words: "Obsessed with revenge. Consumed by it". He flies into a rage whenever he even suspects sylvanas is around, and goes into a lenghty and loud screaming rant when she slips through his fingers.
Sylvanas on the other hand, is cool and controlled throughout all of her appearances in Stormheim, never letting her emotions get the best of her. Even when she stumbles upon the alliance players on the mid-point of the zone, rather than attack us, she simply says (paraphrased) "if you're smart, you'll know that following greymane will only lead to your own doom" and simply continues on.
She has a very specific mission on Stormheim (Getting new Valkyrs to replace the ones she lost, and is doubly-interested in these ones because they hold the secrets to true resurrection. As in: They can bring a dead person back to life, as an actual living being, not as an undead) and unlike Greymane, she refuses to jeopardize her mission just to get tangled into a confrontation with the worgen. She changes her mind only when Greymane successfully foils her plans of obtaining a new set of living valks (How he does this, I have no idea, as its in a cinematic that hasn't been implemented yet), and that's when she decides that before continuing her main mission, first she must cripple the worgen so they don't interfere again with her hunt. And also because they almost kill her, and she decides enough is enough.
Through it all, Greymane is the one that comes across as the unstable one, and she as the collected and calmed one.
Also, for what its worth, Sylvanas never wanted war in the first place. She (and I can't believe I have to play Devil's Advocate for her) only invaded Gilneas because Garrosh ordered it, but her main objectives in cata were to secure all the lands that were around her kingdom, and expand her forces using the valks. Now that the war with the alliance is over, she has no reason to re-ignite it, other than self-defense if they're attacked.
On the brighter side Rank, it's finally more the Alliance's fault for hostilities between factions now. Hard to deny that.
We'll see about that. My stance is more of careful optimism, because:
There's this nasty rumor that the horde betrays the alliance at the broken shore, and may even be responsible for Varian's death, and this is the reason why Greymane and Jaina and Rogers are acting so belligerent against them that they attack them unprovoked on Stormheim.
The event shows nothing of this, both sides go to the broken shore, both get overwhelmed (The alliance faces gul'dan and almost every single named demon lieutenant at the entrance of the temple of sargeras. The Horde faces also several named demon bosses at the top of the cliffs overlooking the temple, and they cover the alliance's flank, but eventually half a dozen Legion Spaceships warp in and bombard the living crap out of the horde.) and both are forced to withdraw. What exactly happens in this retreat, we don't know because the cinematics are not in place.
There's evidence for both theories (That yes, the horde maliciously abandoned the alliance and had something to do with Varian's death, and no, the horde didn't abandon anyone nor was responsible for Varian kicking the bucket, they simply were overwhelmed, just like the alliance was).
The evidence against it is that Vol'jin personally names Sylvanas as his successor before dying to his wounds in orgrimmar, and since he's a very honorable troll, who hates cowards and traitors, he wouldn't do this if there was any dishonor in her actions on the broken shore (he was initially in command, then he gets wounded during the Horde's last stand on the cliffs, and sylvanas takes command, and does "something" that allows the few horde survivors to flee. What that is, I have no clue because again, no cinematics yet).
Also, the Kirin Tor break off from the alliance, reopen the doors to their city to the horde, and even name one of their city districts to Sylvanas. In the cut content (which I guess is no longer canon T_T) they even paid reparations to silvermoon by making Rommath a member of the council of six in place of Jaina.
And not only that, but as mentioned above, all the other alliance leaders, and alliance major and minor figures, other than Jaina, Greymane and Rogers, have no issue with the horde whatsoever. None of this would happen if the horde seriously betrayed the alliance at the broken shore or was in any way responsible for the death of its former High King. There's this bit in Val'shara where Tyrande, who is VERY bigoted against orcs (she has her reasons I admit) still says to a horde player that we're not what she expected and she trusts us explicitly. No mention is made of any betrayal at the broken shore.
The evidence in favor of Sylvanas doing something dishonorable against the alliance on the broken shore, are.........divisive. On the one hand, there's the testimony of Greymane, and Jaina. Greymane specifically says the horde "served us up to the legion". And Jaina also rants to anduin that the horde were treacherous cowards who somehow are to blame for the disaster that happened there. If this was the only evidence of foul play, we could consider this a case closed, as Greymane is a grieving father, obsessed with revenge, and Jaina is.....well...... don't get me started on her. She's unstable and lets leave it at that.
But no, there's also dialog on the HORDE side that seems to suggest (but not directly, its more like implied) that foul play was involved. On the one hand, Anduin says (Paraphrased) "
No Jaina, vengeance can wait, for now we work with the horde
". Implying that yes, the horde is responsible for the death of varian and everyone else who died at the broken shore.
And then there's also two comments, one made by sylvanas, and one made by Lor'themar. Sylvanas says (Shortly before being appointed Warchief by the dying Vol'jin) "
The Broken Shore was just the beginning. The alliance will retaliate. Given the opportunity, they will strike when we are weak
" Again, "Retaliate", if the horde had done nothing wrong, there'd be nothing to retaliate against.
Lor'themar says (paraphrased) "
The alliance lost its king, their people will cry out for vengeance
" To which Ji Firepaw says "
We need them focused on the legion, not festering old hatreds
"
So these three conversations kinda imply that Sylvanas DID something that somehow caused all of this mess. If it was just the testimony of a grieving father who is also a notorious warmonger, and a psychotic woman known for her bouts of homicidal rage, this would be a case closed. But then we have the ambiguous words of Anduin (Who is far more stable, and collected than anyone else on either faction) and then words from the horse's mouth (Sylvanas herself, and Lor'themar).
So for now, that coin is still up in the air. Because not only are the broken shore cinematics missing, so too is the cinematic of Vol'jin appointing sylvanas as warchief and hopefully explaining himself as to why her, of all people. He just calls her to the throne room, we get a fade-to-black, and then everyone is all "Hail to the queen. Long may she reign"
I'm hoping (against all odds) that they don't actually do it. That they don't make sylvanas the one who started this whole mess, that she truly IS innocent of Greymane's accusations, and thus for the first time in almost a decade, we have a confrontation between the factions that is entirely the fault of the alliance. (Something that hasn't happened since War3 The Frozen Throne, when Daelin attacked Orgrimmar)
The hopes are not high however. Everything always has to be the fault of the horde if Kozak has any say in it.. Its not ambiguous that greymane attacks the forsaken unprovoked on Stormheim, but if Sylvanas is guilty of what she's accused of, then its not really "unprovoked".
Post by
oneforthemoney
Well, we'll see. Those statements by Anduin at least could go either way, referring to vengeance for past deeds or recent.
I do hope however we get some damn insight into Sylvanas with this expansion. We'd better considering she plays such a major role. Really her characterization has been all over the place lately, particularly if you take in other media. If peace is possible, if not, where she plans on going after this, and so forth.
Also, I kind of want to see her and Bolvar meet now that the latter has taken on the Lich King mantle. I would think they'd have a lot to relate to one another, although Bolvar seems to have more thoroughly made peace with his predicament, though depending on how the new Valks and their true resurrection deal works out, Sylvanas might get a little more stable.
Post by
Adamsm
Harbingers and Anduin's comic up
,,,um, yeah those are kind of weak. I get it's Draenor Gul'dan but still, bleh. Seeing Anduin kick ass is good but the ending doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Post by
Rankkor
Kinda disappointed.
For one thing, there's no framing device.
For another, it serves to further highlight just how much BS is that statement of blizz that the draenor we visit in WoD is "almost entirely identical to the one from our timeline, with the exception of Garrosh's birth".
I think its quite clear quite a lot of stuff were DRASTICALLY different in this alternate draenor than on ours.
Also, WTF was that flashforward on Anduin's comic?
Are we seriously NOT gonna hit the legion until Anduin is THAT old? or is he gonna get the Khadgar Beauty Treatment?(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Stabhorn
I'm nota fan of the flash-forward, but to be fair, there is nothing to say that that is a strike against the Legion. I believe we will wrap up the Legion in the near future.
I thinks it's the Xal'atath artifact, but correct me if I'm wrong, that whispers, "Hurry up and finish the Dark Titan, there are greater enemies." Referring, of course, to the almighty Void Lords.
Post by
Rankkor
I believe we will wrap up the Legion in the near future.
Except the flashforward doesn't look like it takes place in the near future. Anduin looks very old. And the text said "many many years from now". Unless Anduin took an aging curse similar to Khadgar, does this mean we're fated to keep fighting the legion for another 50 years or so?(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
I believe we will wrap up the Legion in the near future.
Except the flashforward doesn't look like it takes place in the near future. Anduin looks very old. And the text said "many many years from now". Unless Anduin took an aging curse similar to Khadgar, does this mean we're fated to keep fighting the legion for another 50 years or so?
Let's hope so. I can believe the Legion as antagonists but the void lords get a resounding 'meh' from me.
Unless the void lords seize control of the Legion after Sargeras dies.
Post by
Adamsm
It honestly sounds like the Void Lords already have tendrils in the Legion at this point and are using them to annihilate the Light wherever they go.
Post by
Rankkor
That'd be pretty lame. It would effectively give the deathwing treatment to sargeras (AKA: He's no longer the big bad, just a pawn of the real big bads)
Post by
oneforthemoney
More like the Overmind treatment. Oh, you thought this massive monstrous thing which has directed a galaxy wide Scourge did it itself? Nope! It was all a pawn of the REAL evil! Ha ha! Fooled you all with this thing that was completely changed because this guy is writing the backstory now and is obsessed with the idea of nothingness but also something being the TRUE evil!
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