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General Lore Discussions
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Post by
morginar
We don't see a victorian england style cityWell we do...but then the Forsaken ruin it :P
It didn't have brick houses or factories. Close, but no cigar. Hell, not even a charles #$%^ens reference.
Does anyone remember if there has ever been telegrams in wow?
Post by
oneforthemoney
Kind of. They had those punch card machines, but thanks to gnomes they kind of skipped that one.
Post by
morginar
But that's the best part of victorian england!
Post by
morginar
Do you think it's possible that the Raven priests in northrend are linked to Anzu?
In WoD we hear of arakkoa using the red mist. Presumably the blood of Sethe. We have Iskar joining the legion. The flat circle might be that he did it in our past too. So Arakkoa teachings might have gotten in demon hands.
And the scarlets raven priests came from a dreadlord. So that dreadlord might just have given something he found in draenor.
Post by
Rankkor
I think its just a coincidence. Raven iconography, and heavy usage of shadow magic asides, the two seem quite different for several other reasons.
That's just me though.
Post by
Adamsm
I think in that case a raven is just a raven; they could have used crows, but ravens have always been a sample of 'darkness' and seen as mysterious and strange(which is just silly, since while a raven isn't as raucous as a crow, they are very intelligent and curious). Plus the Onslaught ones are just shadow energy that the priests use as weapons, which means they could have been something given form out of their minds.
Also, Anzu is a protector of the world, not a destroyer like the Raven priests were being set up as.
Post by
morginar
The sethekk would disagree with the idea of a benevolent raven god. Don't think the scarlets are a Anzu cult. Still worship light, use dark anzu like magic.
Raven have iconry with death. As the bird eat the dead, just as the dog on anubis head. But what does ravens have to do with the legion? Or even humanity should the dreadlord used human mythology. (of course there is the odins ravens, but I dun think they exist in lore.)
So I think there might be a possibility of Mal'ganis (I think) gave arakkoa teachings to the scarlets. Otherwise I guess it's just rule of cool. Them birds are out of place. Bats might work directly with the dreadlord.
Post by
Adamsm
It is rule of cool; we didn't see Mal'ganis anywhere in Warlords after all.
Post by
Rankkor
I really like how the story in legion has a branching path where your choices determine the outcome of the story.
Branching paths are not exactly new to the game, its just that the deciding factor was your faction. Such as in ICC for example, or Trial of the Crusader. And both paths ended more or less the same anyways.
Not so in legion
In the Demon Hunter starting zone, at one point you are put in charge of the Illidari now that Illidan is out of commission, and you gotta pick your second in command. You get to pick between Altruis The Sufferer from that memorable Demon Hunter questchain in Nagrand in TBC, or a new character named Kayn Sunfury. Both of these have drastically different personalities, and differing opinions regarding the path that the Illidari should take.
This is more than just a cosmetic choice however, because way way later, when you're doing the Class Hall Campaign for the demon hunters, Illidan orders you to confront Akama, and bring him into the Illidari once again. You go to Black Temple, and if Altruis is your second, he will reason with Akama, and thus him and his tribe join the illidari willingly with Akama becoming a follower.
if Kayn is your second however, he'll take a chance to tell akama just what he thinks of traitors, will forcefully subdue him with a new Shade of Akama, this shade becomes your follower, the tribe is forced to join you, and the Shade of Akama is apparently quite the illidan fanboy.
Its really neat to see little details like these.
Of course, the real killer is which version is gonna be considered canon for future references.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Well if
Illidin is supposed to be the champion of the Light and lead it to victory, most likely the reasoning bit. Still though, what the hell. Akama's whole thing is that Illidin is evil and needed to be deposed. But now he rejoins them?
...Alright.
Still, I have to say Legion is looking good from a storytelling perspective. Sure some of it seems dumb and awkward, characters dying left and right and weird decisions being made. But, on the other hand, we seem to actually be getting STORY! Things are happening and that will have lasting and important impacts and we're using things from previous events and characters to advance said story. I'm honestly looking forward to Legion.
Post by
Maladain
Random question I'm hoping someone can clarify for me. Shaman are individuals who commune with the elements, but the elements are chaotic and destructive beings. Warlocks, on the other hand, consort with demons, who are obviously chaotic and destructive beings as well. Why are warlocks feared and despised for doing what it seems like Shaman are doing as well, while Shaman are revered and followed? At least the Warlocks bend the destructive powers to their will; Shaman are actually making friends with the elements and asking them for power! Maybe I'm missing something here....
Post by
Adamsm
Warlocks are using a force of power that is incredibly corruptive and can, if the Warlock in question is not strong enough in his will, will consume the user and turn him into a puppet for the power he's trying to use. Warlocks are also about imposing their will upon the world and forcing it to dance to their tune.
Shamans ask the Elements for assistance and at any time the Elements can deny the request and not help. True shamans(IE not those the Dark Horde/Garrosh used) are about balance and keeping the world flowing properly, not tearing it apart and forcing it to work for them.
Post by
Rankkor
Random question I'm hoping someone can clarify for me. Shaman are individuals who commune with the elements, but the elements are chaotic and destructive beings. Warlocks, on the other hand, consort with demons, who are obviously chaotic and destructive beings as well. Why are warlocks feared and despised for doing what it seems like Shaman are doing as well, while Shaman are revered and followed? At least the Warlocks bend the destructive powers to their will; Shaman are actually making friends with the elements and asking them for power! Maybe I'm missing something here....
The main reason is the purpose behind their actions.
Shaman have a symbiotic relationship with the elements. They bring balance and harmony among the chaotic elemental energies, and use the powers the elements grant them for altruistic reasons. Sure, they can benefit themselves too, but if they use the powers of the elements for selfish reasons too often, the elements are free to tell shaman to take a hike. Shaman can then FORCE the elements to obey, but the moment they do that, they're Dark Shaman, and those are not respected or revered, they're feared.
Shaman soothe the elements, preventing them from causing collateral damage with their untapped potential power of destruction, this is doubly so in Draenor, where the elemental furies are even more unstable than their azerothian counterparts and require the intervention of shamans to act as ambassadors to keep them working with each other in harmony, rather than tear the world apart in a devastating elemental war.
Lastly, shaman are more than just dealers with the elements. They're links between the physical world and the spiritual world, able to commune with the spirits of the ancestors, ask for their guidance, and impart their blessings upon their descendants.
In short: Shaman use their powers for more than just personal gain. They also bring order and stability to the chaotic nature of the elements, preventing them from killing each other and those around them. They serve as bridges between the living and the dead without resorting to defiling the dead like a necromancer would. And shaman never impose their will upon anyone. The elements are not obligated to obey the shaman. Shamans just ask, and if they make a good case, the elements answer.
Warlocks on the other hand, are an entirely different matter.
For one thing, they consort with demons exclusively and solely to benefit themselves. Its all just so THEIR power increases. Whereas a shaman can struck a bargain with a water elemental to bring rain to a drought-affected farm, and in return the shaman will attack and stop those goblins that are pouring sludge on the nearby lake, the warlock will put shackles on that nasty infernal, and then unleash that same infernal on that pack of bandits that are over there, scorching the land in the process and rendering it permanently infertile and barren.
Also, the forces that the warlocks consort with, are all about destruction. The elements can do more than just destroy. After all, water is essential to life, and so is air, and earth, and even fire is needed to live. But fel magic only corrupts, destroys, sterilizes, and removes not just life, but the possibility of life returning to that which it affects. Its not a magic that can do anything to HELP anyone, only HARM.
Lastly, warlocks do more than just consort with demons. Their spells are specifically and deliberately designed to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible, and they're fueled by the souls of their slain foes, so even the afterlife is denied to those who the warlocks use as a reagent. Their rituals involve all manner of dark and horrible things, including blood sacrifices, and worse. A shaman never needs to harm another living being to do what they do. Warlocks not only are obligated to do so, they take a sadistic glee in doing so as well.
Then there's the collateral damage of what a warlock's help will do.
When that shaman over there throws a boulder of liquid magma at that rampaging band of centaurs, they're gonna die, and that's it.
When that warlock over there throws an infernal boulder of fel fire into that rampaging band of centaurs, yes, they're gonna die as well, but everything in a 50 yard radius of the impact will never see anything grow again. No animal is gonna come within a 100 yards of that spot either.
So shaman, while capable of great destruction, are also capable of great salvation, and can create, just as easily as they can tear apart. Warlocks are only capable of great destruction, on a scale that renders reconstruction physically impossible.
Post by
Rankkor
Sure some of it seems dumb and awkward, characters dying left and right
This is just me, but I think they're trying to overcompensate.
I've said it before, blizzard doesn't know how to use the scalpel, they only use the chainsaw. When a spell is overperforming in a raid, they don't just subtly tweak their damage, maybe lower it by a tiny amount. Nope, they just wreck the spell apart and make it almost useless for anything, and then slowly rebuild it back up.
They do the same with the story.
A lot of people (myself included) bemoaned just how incompetent, unmenacing, boring, and flat out stupid the iron horde was as a threat. They didn't pose even half the menace that the original Dark Horde did, these guys are just completely incompetent, unable to conquer almost any of the zones they stepped in, and couldn't even stick to their anti-legion shtick.
We won too easily against them. We more or less steamrolled through them, to the point that in a lot of cases, our other foes in draenor ended up being far more dangerous than them, and the legion pretty much took over mid-expansion as the main bad guys because the Iron Horde were just incapable idiots.
So now, they're trying to overcompensate for that, by having important characters die left and right in Legion. Perhaps to illustrate "look guys, the legion is totally serious business. Look at all the people that are dying left and right"
Post by
Maladain
Shaman can then FORCE the elements to obey, but the moment they do that, they're Dark Shaman, and those are not respected or revered, they're feared.
What about the Taunka Shaman of Northrend?
Post by
Adamsm
They gave that up after they joined the Horde; they did it though because of the harsh land they lived in, and while they bound the Elements, they didn't use them in the same way that the Dark Shamans did; they didn't use them to murder innocents and the like.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Sure some of it seems dumb and awkward, characters dying left and right
This is just me, but I think they're trying to overcompensate.
I've said it before, blizzard doesn't know how to use the scalpel, they only use the chainsaw."
That does sound about right. Blizz has a tendency to swing wild and far whenever they think they see a problem. See Garrosh, among others. Then again, that's not necessarily a bad thing here, as the Legion should be the big threat that threatens the whole world in a very real sense. The last couple of expansions didn't do too well conveying that.
And, hopefully, getting rid of some characters hogging the spotlight will make room for others who have seen little light.
Assuming they stay dead, of course...
Post by
Rankkor
Assuming they stay dead, of course...
*sighs*
Some of them don't.
Tirion dies at the start of the expansion. Comes back as a DK within the starting patch. And while I'm convinced otherwise, almost nobody is buying that Varian will actually die. Or Vol'jin for that matter.
That does sound about right. Blizz has a tendency to swing wild and far whenever they think they see a problem. See Garrosh
Ohh yes :S Jaina is another example. Some folks complained that she was too soft, lacking a spine, blizzard solution? lets make her WOTLK!Varian in female form, with an overdose of steroids and psychosomatics.
They don't exactly believe in fixing what's broken. Their solution is more along the lines of taking a sledgehammer and tear down whatever isn't working and try again with someone or something else.
I'm hoping Sylvanas will prove an exception to that norm, but I'm not holding my breath.
And, hopefully, getting rid of some characters hogging the spotlight will make room for others who have seen little light.
Here's to hoping. I mean, A LOT of major and minor characters are gonna die in Legion. I'm not kidding around here, lots of folks from the alliance, horde, argent crusade, cenarion circle, demigods, aspects, etc, are getting offed rather unceremoniously. They HAVE to replace them with something.
Post by
Adamsm
They HAVE to replace them with something.Well, unless Legion is it :P
Post by
Rankkor
They HAVE to replace them with something.Well, unless Legion is it :P
Doubtful. During the presentation of WoD, they said they had already six expansions planned out and lined out. "Like bullets in a six-shooter". Do you feel lucky? punk? =P
So we have a minimum of at least 5 more expacs after legion.
Also.....
EPIC FAIL!!!!!!
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