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Post by
Adamsm
And to wipe out the Scourge, which was the third faction attempting to take Andorhol. It was just the game play that Thassarian and Koltira were tagged as Blue/Red; even when you look back at their respective quest lines in Northrend, while they fought along side a faction, they were apart from it and make it obvious they are there on Mograine's orders same as when they went to Stormwind and Orgrimmar as ambassadors to the Blade to have the Death Knights work along side the factions. Individual player DK's can be part of the factions as per their back stories, but the high rankers are still separate.
Post by
morginar
They seemed more into taking the city than just kill scourge. "Scourge first alliance/horde later" is the first quest in Western not so plauged lands.
Post by
Rankkor
But even as commander of a army, you have responsibility.
True, but as we've said, he was on loan. If she was unsatisfied with his service, she should have fired him. She didn't have the right to kidnap him. Even then, the Ebon Blade tried several times to negotiate for his release, Sylvanas could have easily asked for compensation for damages on what she saw as a faulty service from Koltira, but she didn't. She intended to keep him, and brainwash him into serving her.
THAT was beyond her authority. Thus the Ebon Blade took back one of their own. Horde players are not really betraying Sylvanas, not even Forsaken DKs, because they never swore fealty to her, they're just rescuing one of their brothers. From the beginning, Death Knights have just been working
with
the alliance and
with
the horde. Not
FOR
them.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
morginar
She intended to keep him, and brainwash him into serving her.Source? Her intentions on Kolitra where never clear.
Maybe the ebons where just cheap and didn't want to pay?
To me it's just strange for them to be ebon blade in andorhal. Why not set up a neutral hub where they focus on scourge alone?
Are all the other dks we meet also Ebon Blade? Like the blackrock DK found in redridge. The dwarf dk in Hillsbrad, the other dwarf dk in hordeside jade forest, another dwarf dk, a follower found in ashran?
To me the DK PC has joined the factions. Otherwise it'll be some akward storytelling with the rebellion, garrisons and whatnot. And Thassarian and Kolitra have done the same. Thus they are not brothers anymore. Thus they are going to kill each other for control of Andorhal.
-worgens seems to be able to join the forsaken
https://twitter.com/ChrisMetzen/status/470640051051716608
Post by
Rankkor
She intended to keep him, and brainwash him into serving her.Source? Her intentions on Kolitra where never clear.
There's not much room for interpretation with her dialog.
When she says things like "I have agents that can erase that weakness, soon your loyalties will lie with the horde, or more specifically, with the forsaken"
Maybe the ebons where just cheap and didn't want to pay?
Nope. According to Thassarian, Sylvanas refused to negotiate at all, he didn't say that she offered unacceptable terms, but rather that she refused all offers of communication.
To me it's just strange for them to be ebon blade in andorhal. Why not set up a neutral hub where they focus on scourge alone?
They were on loan man, dont you know what that expression means?
Are all the other dks we meet also Ebon Blade? Like the blackrock DK found in redridge. The dwarf dk in Hillsbrad, the other dwarf dk in hordeside jade forest, another dwarf dk, a follower found in ashran?
The blackrock orc in Redridge is wearing DK armor, but he's not an actual death knight. As for the other examples, yes, they're all ebon blade. Working with the alliance, but still loyal to the order first and foremost.
Similar to how several members of the Earthen Ring are also members of the horde and alliance. Understand that Death Knights are afflicted with the Eternal Hunger. They NEED to kill, or they get wracked with horrible pains that will drive them mad and into a killing frenzy. So after they were freed, they began working with the alliance and horde, in order to sate that need to kill on a battlefield, rather than killing innocent bystanders.
So that Death Knight dwarf in the jade forest? Ebon Blade member, offering his services to the alliance.
To me the DK PC has joined the factions. Otherwise it'll be some akward storytelling with the rebellion, garrisons and whatnot. And Thassarian and Kolitra have done the same. Thus they are not brothers anymore. Thus they are going to kill each other for control of Andorhal.
It would be nice to get some official clarification on this, but as far as I've understood, right from the start, all DKs, players included, are mercenaries, working with the alliance and horde only by necessity.
The very letter that Tirion writes to the
King
and
Warchief
says so.
"
I ask not that you accept <NAME> and the Knights of the Ebon Blade into the Alliance/Horde, but only that you show tolerance.
"
This is also reflected a little in-game, because Death Knights are the only class that gets class-exclusive guards on their garrison. They can have Ebon Blade banners everywhere, and Ebon Blade guards everywhere. Whereas paladins don't get argent dawn guards, shaman don't get earthen ring guards, druids don't get cenarion circle guards, etc.
Why that discrepancy? Because Paladins, Shamans, and Druids, are actual members of the alliance and horde. They have only worked with the Argents, Earthen Ring, and Cenarion Circle, but they're not a part of it.
But playable Dks are actual officers of the Ebon Blade, thus they can command a regiment of Ebon Blade knights to guard their garrison.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
morginar
The very first quest in boeran tundra for alliance has them joining the army. Guess they got tolerated and joined? Though the very next quest deals with draenei not being allowed to join because they are aliens. And the third is a lady looking for Thassarian who is in suicide squad.
Similar to how several members of the Earthen Ring are also members of the horde and alliance.
Something something. Malfurion Cenarion circle. Something. Not helping tyrande in darnassus raids or defending ashenvale from horde.
Post by
Rankkor
The very first quest in boeran tundra for alliance has them joining the army. Guess they got tolerated and joined? Though the very next quest deals with draenei not being allowed to join because they are aliens. And the third is a lady looking for Thassarian who is in suicide squad.
Yep, that part was jarring, considering on the horde side, we get to recruit the taunka, induct them into the horde, have them swear the blood oath to the warchief, and deliver horde armaments to them.
My guess is that it would have been too much effort to re-write every single faction-exclusive quest to better fit a Death Knight's perspective, which is why all NPCs treat us like we're actual members of the horde and alliance, rather than mercenaries. Because indeed everyone treats us exactly like proud and upstanding members of the horde and alliance at all times. From a lore perspective, we're supposed to be shunned by society, mistrusted, looked at with suspicion and wariness, and barely tolerated out of necessity.
This is not reflected in quest dialog at all except when we go to deliver our letter of introduction to the warchief and the king.
Post by
morginar
I can imagine the integration horde side being rather fast due to the forsaken. They are both ex-scourge.
Alliance on the other hand. By accepting undead rights and death knights into their ranks. They lose their justification to exterminate the unnatural* undead.
*Whilst undeath is part of the cosmos, they are the oposite of nature. Hence why dark rangers can't use nature magic.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I can imagine the integration horde side being rather fast due to the forsaken. They are both ex-scourge.
Alliance on the other hand. By accepting undead rights and death knights into their ranks. They lose their justification to exterminate the unnatural* undead.
*Whilst undeath is part of the cosmos, they are the oposite of nature. Hence why dark rangers can't use nature magic.
I imagine the Alliance has come to grips with DK's the same way they have warlocks. So long as they're working for us, and no children are vanishing and animals showing up with various pieces missing, they'll tolerate them. As well, the Ebon Blade doesn't pose a massive threat militarily to something the size of the Alliance.
Now, they might have been willing to do the same with Forsaken, had the Forsaken a) not been a large military force on the opposite side of an armed conflict, and b) immediately after the Northrend wars literally start a genocide campaign against humans to raise them into their ranks.
Post by
morginar
Humanity started it, the scarlet crusade are human only jerks and Varian Wrynn declared war in siege of undercity.
Whilst the forsaken did war, it's primary reason wasn't to get corpses for the val'ks. Nor was it extermination of humanity.
Post by
Adamsm
Yes, the original conflict between Humans and Forsaken was you know....undead walking up to the living and since there had just been several years of conflict with the Scourge, the living understandably tried to fight them.
However while Varian declared War against the Forsaken(and by extension the Horde) in Undercity, he did so after RAS committed their atrocity at the Wrathgate with the weapon that Sylvanas approved to be created...the same weapon that kills both the living and the dead.
And in Cata Sylvanas 'reason' for war was, all lands belong to the Forsaken, whether they have living people there or not; screw those guys, they die.
Post by
morginar
The "Lordaeron belong to the forsaken" means as the lady said during our ride in silverpine...
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: But the Alliance does not recognize our rights. They claim this land is their own while attempting to invalidate the claims of the founders of this kingdom.
It is, you there with a pulse, you're a invader, not a reclaimer. Get of my land before I shot you Texas style.
Post by
Adamsm
Except for the Gilneans, Hillsbrad, Stormgardians, Arathi and the Stormpikes who were there.....Lordaeron is Tirisfal not the entire North.
Post by
Rankkor
Not quite man. Hillsbrad IS part of lordaeron. They used to be part of Alterac, but with the fall of the kingdom, they were absorbed into Lordaeron. This is why Tarren Mill citizens count as lordaeronians, and why the guards in the Old Hillsbrad dungeon wear Lordaeron tabards.
You have a point with Arathi, but the forsaken never really expanded much past the wall. They got Galen, but other than a minor watch post, they have no real settlements in the area.
As for Gilneas, Sylvanas only invaded it because Garrosh ordered it. And the Western plaguelands were once part of lordaeron, with the fall of the scourge, the land was up for grabs, and both the alliance and the horde were making a push to claim it. It belonged to whoever could keep it.
In cataclysm, sylvanas was just securing the borders of Lordaeron, nothing more. (With the exception of Gilneas which as I said, was forced onto her by Garrosh. She doesn't even KEEP the land, she withdraws and doesn't pursue the gilneans once they're out of silverpine)
Post by
oneforthemoney
So here's a question that's been on my mind a bit. Do you prefer Warcraft as more of a straight fantasy with some elements of technology? Or the more fantasy steampunk blend it has been going towards lately?
Post by
Adamsm
Warcraft has had steam punk influences in it since the second game though; it was only the very first one that was straight up fantasy. Once they added in the gnomes and the goblins, the tech went schizo; the gnome whirl copters and submarines against the Goblin zeppelins and turtle subs. WC3 added in the Dwarven steam tanks, and then WoW just took off with the mechanical city of Gnomer and the Gobs GTA inspired land scape.
In other words; I've seen it as a steam punk mish mash since the early time, since from the third game on, they were doing the major world building and only lightly referencing the standard fantasy tropes.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I don't particular prefer either but I do highly respect that there's progression. Medieval stasis for no reason always irks me. There's places where it's justified, but there's more than a few settings that inexplicably have people stop bothering to invent once they figure out catapults.
My stance is similar to yours.
I'm not happy about medieval stasis either. That idea that hundreds of thousands of years can pass, with little to no technological advancement in the meantime.
So on that end, I'm glad that wow is averting that by introducing technology into its setting progressively. I mean, back in War2 there was some technology indeed with the gnomes and goblins, but it was still rare, and didn't play THAT much of a factor.
Compare and contrast to today where we have carriers, gunships, bombers, power armor, mechs, automated security systems, etc.
Where I'm bothered however, is when technology isn't given the serious appreciation it should. In warcraft, getting hit by a bolt of fel magic is almost a death sentence, but you can be shot at pointblank with a rocket launcher and just get up. The power of a gun, let alone a mounted machinegun emplacement isn't represented as well as it should be. A fiery boulder of fire energy, or a lightning bolt, or a fel meteor, are treated as very serious business, but a 50 caliber slug from an antimateriel rifle? Pffft, pea-shots.
What better example than the Iron Horde.
When blizzard introduced this concept on blizzcon, I was imagining a real magic-vs-technology vibe here. Where an orc with an automatic assault rifle shooting a charging squad of paladins could mow them down like grass, simply because he has the power of a gun.
Instead, as soon as we cross the dark portal, the literal first thing I saw was a Gronn firing a barrage of mortar shells at our troops, who took them right to the face, and then immediately got back up, dusted off, and kept fighting like nothing happened.
=/
/facepalm.
So this is why sometimes I prefer the medieval stasis. If you're gonna put technology into the dungeons&dragons fantasy setting, at least give it the respect it deserves, and have that random schmuck with a 12-gauge shotgun be treated as a menace just as serious and just as dangerous as that wizard with the beard and the pointy hat.
Edit: on that note, this is one of the reasons why I'm such a fan of star wars, because they DO show respect for both sides.
Force users, be them Jedi or Sith, are a force to be reckoned with, and are easily worth a dozen "muggle" soldiers or more. Their dominion of the force, and their skills with a lightsaber make them a fearsome sight on a battlefield........... but mundane weapons are not portrayed as harmless.
A firing squad of 50 soldiers
unloading their blasters at once at point blank
can cut down even a Grand Master Jedi, and in the Old Republic setting, it gets even better, as non-force sensitives are shown to be quite proficient at engaging jedi and sith with very effective results.
Boba Fett himself is incapable of using magic, yet he is a fearsome opponent, who uses technology to give himself an edge among sith lords and jedi masters, as opposed to brute force.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
morginar
Whilst a stasis in the dark ages might be irksome, there was a technological stagnation during that era. Tech might not be developed in a dark age where one does not need gunpowder because a fireball works beter. Because the church of light magic doesn't trust your herb cure. Etc.
But. I do dislike how tech advance so fast in wow. 400 years of technological development happening in 10 years, some of this tech is sci-fi with pipes and a steam-engine hand waved as "steampunk". And stormwind is still a mid-dark age castle. No industrial city or elements of it, both dark and bright.
Then. There is the dilema of guns in sword fights. We have guns. And swords. Suspension of disbelief comes up when we have armies of gunmen yet also swords men.
I can like a steampunk heroic fantasy. If both good and bad elements of technology exist. Technophobes and dirty factories. And how magic and technology blend or the lack of there of. Warcraft hasn't. We see no conservative mindset and distrust on technology. We don't see a victorian england style city, but a happy dark age city.
In other news. Felo'melorn
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2016/april/fireMageArtifactLore.jpg
That last page makes me want to stab Aethas. Can't I kill him and get Lyandra Sunstrider into my hall?
I like the background of the sword. And that elves magic > Troll hoodoo.
Post by
Adamsm
We don't see a victorian england style cityWell we do...but then the Forsaken ruin it :P
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