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Post by
oneforthemoney
Okay. So, just read the new wowpedia article on Xavius, and I have to say...
Corruption. Corruption freaking everywhere.
It's...Wow. It's really dumb. Like, amazingly stupid how overused that tool become in Blizzard's writing. Need a new bad guy? Corruption! Need to kill off a major character but also don't want to have to make a new boss? They're evil now! No hope of saving them. Just hurry up and knock them off if you'd be so kind.
I mean honestly. Ysera AND Cenarius?
I start feeling like Blizzard is almost afraid of its own lore. Like it's ashamed of its past story for being too fantasy and so are trying to wipe away everything that it was in order to build something in its place. Like they think what WoW lore has become is vastly superior to what they once had. So they try and erase all the things that tie them to the old stories. Dragons aren't wardens of azeroth anymore and lost their powers. Demons can never really die. Hell, even Xavius apparently lives on in the damn Nightmare even after we kill him.
And that being said, reading the rest of the Xavius story, it's not utterly awful. Malfurion and Tyrande FINALLY get something to do. The plot itself seems interesting or at least entertaining. But the Cenarius and Ysera things...I don't know. It just feels like they were looking for a chance to dispose of these characters. It seems lazy. Really lazy, and it's one of those things that blunts emotional impacts to events. And I just know that next expansion, either Nozdormu or Alexstraza are going to get the boot, likely thanks to old gods and maybe Nefarion coming back as a shade or some idiocy.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Okay. So, just read the new wowpedia article on Xavius, and I have to say...
Corruption. Corruption freaking everywhere.
It's...Wow. It's really dumb. Like, amazingly stupid how overused that tool become in Blizzard's writing. Need a new bad guy? Corruption! Need to kill off a major character but also don't want to have to make a new boss? They're evil now! No hope of saving them. Just hurry up and knock them off if you'd be so kind.
I mean honestly. Ysera AND Cenarius?
I start feeling like Blizzard is almost afraid of its own lore. Like it's ashamed of its past story for being too fantasy and so are trying to wipe away everything that it was in order to build something in its place. Like they think what WoW lore has become is vastly superior to what they once had. So they try and erase all the things that tie them to the old stories. Dragons aren't wardens of azeroth anymore and lost their powers. Demons can never really die. Hell, even Xavius apparently lives on in the damn Nightmare even after we kill him.
And that being said, reading the rest of the Xavius story, it's not utterly awful. Malfurion and Tyrande FINALLY get something to do. The plot itself seems interesting or at least entertaining. But the Cenarius and Ysera things...I don't know. It just feels like they were looking for a chance to dispose of these characters. It seems lazy. Really lazy, and it's one of those things that blunts emotional impacts to events. And I just know that next expansion, either Nozdormu or Alexstraza are going to get the boot, likely thanks to old gods and maybe Nefarion coming back as a shade or some idiocy.
And now you know how I feel about WoD. They had something real, with depth, and tragedy mixed with a lot more complexity and far-reaching consequences with the original lore regarding Draenor and the downfall of the orcs and the draenei. Then they said "screw it, ALL ORCS ARE EVIL, JUST BECAUSE" and boom, WoD. Where all the deep complexity of the orc society was boiled down to "ME SMASH, YOU DIE!!" and all orc tribes save 1 gets obliterated just because, with zero redeeming qualities, or even any depth to their motivations other than "me likes killing just 'cause". Draenei too had a layer of complexity to them, but they were whitewashed into pansies and goodie-two-shoes lacking a spine and suddenly turning to the legion just because.
I honestly question whether they're even bothering anymore. I'm just going through the motions, but my actual enjoyment of the plot has declined sharply lately =/
And them working so hard on taking the older more respectable parts of their lore and smashing them to bits is concerning. Its like nothing is sacred anymore. I'm actually scared of what they're gonna do to Illidan. The guy was already borderline annoying in the past (Thanks a ton Knaak).
The inconsistencies also make my head hurt. I mean......
I just read the demon hunter starting zone synopsis. Maiev is the one who frees you from the Vault of the Wardens.......... what? Wasn't she like..... a wanted criminal? hunted down FOR MURDER?!?!! Didn't she become an insane serial killer? What the hell man? Now she's suddenly, and inexplicably a Warden Commander, quite possibly their leader, as I haven't seen any evidence of someone higher than her in the chain of command.
I Just don't know anymore :S
This, coupled with the death of Vol'jin (Yep, they die, there's some datamined info about their funerals on Durotar and Stormwind respectively) Sylvanas ascending to Warchief, and some disturbing rumors that Sylvanas may in fact be behind the deaths of both Vol'jin and Varian (Which makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER) are putting into severe questioning my enjoyment of Legion. I'm a fierce advocate of never judging a book by the cover, and not leaping to conclusions, particularly given that this is all unreleased content, subject to change at any moment, but..... yeah, as it stands right now, it just doesn't look good at all.
I talked about this with Skreeran a few days back, and he neatly summed it up in one concise line: "We're going through warchiefs like cigarettes now :S"
And yes, the villain recycling is getting ridiculous at this point. As is the "when we're running out of baddies to kill, corrupt a good guy and kill them". Its not hard to write NEW villains. They did it with Lei Shen, and I honestly enjoyed his story and that of the Mogu quite a lot. The Sha were a refreshing breath of fresh air that neatly complimented the lore and the mythos of warcraft. Why the hell can't they do something like that again? I have no idea.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
Yeah. I suppose. I just think Blizzard doesn't remember what made Arthas's corruption story any damn good. Sure he was helped along by his evil artifact, and yes he did some damn questionable things, but it was a process! There was time as it was done. Now they just magic someone evil. It's shoddy and it shows and everyone knows it for what it is. Lazy. Goddam. Writing.
Like Khadgar's warden bodyguard. She didn't turn evil because she was seduced by power or had a lack of belief. She looked into the palantír expy and became evil. Whelp! But the Nightmare is not somthing just thrown around. It had a process too. It corrupted over time her lieutenants and locked her in the dream. It didn't just DO IT. But now the writers think they don't have time and no one will care that corruption just happened.
Hoestly, the best attempt at corruption I've seen since WoW started was the red dragon in Coldarra. She was the final boss, but she was also a reluctant one, fighting you and fighting it even in her insanity. I liked that. It showed willpower. Now, you get touched by evil blood and you're automatically doomed so may as well collapse a roof on top of you.
It's...I don't know. I still have hope for Legion. The Night Elf story with Xavius does sound good as long as you ignore the Ysera and Cenarius thing. But...Yeah. It gets hard to believe, and I sometimes wonder why I even care anymore. Maybe because I want it to be better.
Post by
Rankkor
Speaking of inconsistencies, I just saw a few videos of the artifact weapons, and on the enhancement shaman video........ Thrall still has his powers. And I'm not talking about a simple lightning bolt or two, he's full blown causing an earthquake, and a huge lightning storm. I just don't get it. Either the elements have gone silent on him, or they haven't. What gives? Have you ever heard of the elements going semi-silent on a shaman before?
This, along with Maiev inexplicably being a Warden Commander, possibly their leader, instead of a hunted down criminal as we last saw her makes me wanna shout: "
Continuity is not a polite suggestion
."
Post by
oneforthemoney
Maybe they'll change it to him feeling unworthy of the Doomhammer so passing it on. After some of the stupid crap he's done, I'd be on board with that explanation.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm just mad that Blizzard seems determined to kill off any cool orc characters. I mean seriously. We've got Thrall's extended family, Saurfang, Thura, Jorin Deadeye, Ariok, and that's pretty much it. Even those last four have pretty much been left to rot.
Like, I thought the point of going to the past was so that some of the cool characters that are dead now could be alive again? Nope, the whole point was so that we could kill them again and end up right where we started.
Post by
Rankkor
We've got Thrall's extended family, Saurfang, Thura, Jorin Deadeye, Ariok, and that's pretty much it. Even those last four have pretty much been left to rot.
Actually, its worse.
Thrall's extended family remains in draenor, and will never cross over to azeroth, nor will they be revisited again, so they may as well be dead, since they'll never show up in the story again. And in the present timeline, they're dead, all we got is Aggra, who is by far one of the most annoying nagging characters ever made (reminding me A LOT of Raiden's girlfriend Rose in Metal Gear Solid 2) and his two sons who are not so much characters, more like accessories, background fluff.
Jorin....... has he ever done anything at all? like anything? Because other than being the son of someone famous, he never really did anything in TBC, and hasn't shown up again since then, so he's hardly different from other named, but otherwise irrelevant orc NPCs, like say...... I dunno........
Harruk
.
Thura has yet to show up or even be mentioned in the game, all she's ever done was play a role in a rather crappy book that had almost no ramifications or even a footnote on the game itself. Anyone who's never read Stormrage simply has no idea she even exists.
And Ariok's future is flipped coin still in the air, because after the intro in the Tanaan jungle, he gets captured by the bleeding hollow clan, chained up in Hellfire Citadel, and they drain him of his blood to produce other Dire Orcs or something like that. He actually dies during the fight with Kilrogg Deadeye, unless your team has a really good DPS and you can beat the timer, which nets you the achievement
A Race Against Slime
and Ariok as a follower. But at this point, its unknown which fate is canon, his death on the normal encounter, or his survival in the achievement.
=/
Quite literally, Thrall and Saurfang are all we have left, and even then, Thrall is only Thrall "in name only" since they're determined of stripping him of everything that made him the awesome character he was back in Warcraft 3. He no longer sports that badass mullet, no longer has the doomhammer, goes back and forth with having the Black Plate armor, is losing his shamanistic powers (Even though in the game, he still can do a ton of crap playable shamans can't do) and became a henpecked husband that needs to get his balls out of his wife's purse before he does anything at all. Its like I barely even recognize him anymore.
Saurfang himself hasn't really done anything of note in almost 6 years now, and is only a few years away from passing on.
And most other cool orc characters have been either killed off, or corrupted so they'll be killed off later. I mean Shokia was really awesome in MoP; I liked her no-nonsense attitude, and then the book Warcrimes revealed she was in cahoots with garrosh :S Same with Zaela, easily the best thing to come out of cataclysm.
Its gotten so bad, that orcs are the only race in the game that currently doesn't have any leader at all. Even the official website marks them as "Leaderless".
Post by
Atik
I would suggest you all jump ship and join me as fans of the true Master Race.
Glory to the Dark Lady! For the Warchief!
Post by
Rankkor
Shouldn't it be Warchieftress?
Post by
Atik
Shouldn't it be Warchieftress?
I'm fairly certain "Chief" isn't a gender-specific title...
Alternatively, it could be "The Dark Banshee Warchief of the Horde, her Lady Sylvannas"
Post by
Rankkor
Look, I wouldn't be so against this, if only blizzard hadn't whacked Sylvanas with the villain stick in cata =/
And nothing points at her getting any nicer this time around. Understand that we spent over 5 and a half years under an A-hole warchief, and now we're getting another. Worst part is, unless they somehow pull a redemption story on her (Which would make it what....... the sixth time a redemption story is smeared on the horde? Like how many redemptions must we go through?) it will inevitably lead to her being killed, resulting in ohh yeah,
THE FIFTH
warchief killed.
Man, being a warchief is practically a death sentence.
Were it not for that little detail, if Sylvanas was still the same badass anti-hero/anti-villain she was during War3 and vanilla/tbc/wrath, I'd actually be 100% behind this idea. But under her current characterization, she practically has written "FUTURE VILLAIN" all over her face, and I dunno about you, but I've seen enough horde leaders die. Made even more depressing by the knowledge that not a single alliance leader has died yet. Magni comes back in Legion, Malfurion and Tyrande are still perfectly fine, as is Genn, and the three dwarves, and Main!Velen (AU!Velen doesn't count) and Gelbin (Who's death nobody would really miss, most people don't even know his first name) and Varian would probably be the first.
Meanwhile, horde players have seen killed Cairne, Garrosh, Vol'jin, and unless a miracle happens, Sylvanas too, leaving the only leaders untouched be Gallywix (Who's survival only happens due to him being virtually inexistent in the game) and Lor'themar (Who prior to MoP, had barely like 3 quests where he mildly intervened). Thrall is still technically alive, but in-name only. The character I knew and loved is long long gone.
Sorry for the rant, but this seriously has upset me :S why can't the horde have a nice story flung our way? just once?
Post by
Atik
Well, I've gone over it before, but I still love Sylvannas. And the only thing I hope for is that she isn't forgotten for THREE @#$%ING EXPANSIONS again.
I mean, seriously. Let's take a look at her development as a characters. She broke free of the Lich King's control, and managed to tear a portion of the Scourge away from him. She vowed to take revenge, both for herself and for her newfound people.
And then she was apparently too busy cleaning maggots out of herself or... something. Because she doesn't do much of anything until Wrath. At which point, her Dreadlord Underling has turned a large portion of her forces against her, the RAS has been plotting to betray her, and the Blight is put to use without her consent.
With the help of the Alliance and Horde, she takes back her city, and decides not to make the same mistake twice. From Wrath onwards, she has ruled her people with an iron fist. Even in far-off settlements like Hillsbrad, she immediately puts a stop to unapproved research.
But, backing up, she takes her second blow to her ego at the end of Wrath. In Icecrown Citadel, we see Jaina, Varian, Garrosh, Saurfang, Tirion... but no Sylvannas. And this is after she assisted in major victories at the Forge of Souls and such. For whatever reason, she is not present for the final battle against the Lich King; the enemy she rallied her people against since Warcraft 3.
So, what's the direct result? It breaks her. We see this at the beginning of Cataclysm, which Silverpine. And even before that, dialogue from NPCs in Tirisfal make it clear that the Forsaken people became aimless. They were disenchanted with their fates as the Undead. And this feeling was shared by their Queen. They set their sights to new goals. Most immediately; expansion. Cities were rebuilt, boarders were expanded, and new Forsaken were raised. This became their new mission, their new goal; the Forsaken would not go quietly from this world, they would make their presence known.
And then what? When we reach Arathi, and the Forsaken war machine seems to have settled in their new southern boarder, what is Sylvannas' next move?
We have no @#$%ing idea. We haven't heard from her since. She has been absent for all of Cata's new zones, through Mists of Pandaria, and through Warlords. She had one subplot in War Crimes that basically just confirmed she was battling with a desire to keep her people strong, and a fear of just becoming Arthas. And it basically made it clear there wasn't anyone to relate to her, no one she could truly turn to for advice.
And now we get to Legion. She suddenly has the mantle of Warchief thrust upon her. The Horde is hers. And what can we expect from such an event?
Will she have a realization that the Forsaken are not her only people? That the entire Horde needs her, and so she will reform, and lead the Horde to be stronger and more capable than even Garrosh had?
Will she perhaps finally reach out? With hardly any Horde leaders left to stand beside her, will she look to the Alliance for advice?
Or, perhaps, will she continue in her downwards spiral? Will she rule the entire horde as she had her own people? Demanding near-worship, having statues of herself around Orgrimmar and all Horde territory? Will she re-ignite the war between Alliance and Horde, convinced that she alone can defend Azeroth from the Legion?
Whatever path she takes, I'll just be excited to see her doing something.
Post by
morginar
When de time comes, you be ready to fight?
If dis only de beginning, ain't gonna be easy. If we fight, everyone gonna be makin' sacrifices.
Vol'jin...
All your instinct be true. Innocent lives be valued, indeed, but dem magics... Demons we ain't been seein' before. I be fearin' dis only be de beginnin'.
Warchief, I understand, but we cannot afford to send everything we have at the Legion. Some of our people are not ready for a war. It is -
It is unfortunate... for all of us, but the time has come to defend our people - all of our people.
Good. Now we all be seein'... united as one, but we also be need'n an old knowledge. Someone who understand dem fel magics from long ago. Someone ta help understand de fight dey be bringin. Helpin' us prepare... for war.
Warchief, even with the might of the Horde behind us, the Legion's power continues to grow. We know neither their numbers nor their true power, but as you said, we know their intentions.
Yes... and we ain't gone be fightin' de Legion alone. It be time we be reachin' out. I be goin' to visit an old friend.
Dem serious times. Tell your people it's time to be gettin' ready. Everybody gettin' ready.
And what of my guards, Warchief? We cannot afford to leave the city in its state. The Legion is threat enough, and the Alliance - the Alliance will surely strike when our guard is down.
Leave 'em. Dem guards be remindin' us of those we lost. They be remindin' us we be one Horde. And dey be remindin' us - ain't nobody be sittin' down when war be upon us.
From
mmo-champ
I think Vol'jin did what he does best. Fake his death, again. And picked Sylvanas to lead in his abcense. Unlikely for Sylvanas to backstab anyone. The rummors of Sylvanas killing Beard-troll or Chin-man are made by fanatics that want to kill Sylvanas.
Also I don't think Blizzard gave too much though of what happened in Knaaks books, and for the better. I like Maiev from WC3. A good counterpart to Illidan on how similar they are. Though I wouln't put it past me that she was "corrupted" during the book should they mention it's events.
Even though she was a little crazy. It was somewhat reasonable, Malfurion IS a giant jerk that needs a oversized spiky chakram somewhere it hurts. I'm amazed that no one else tried to oppose furions ideas or backstab him.
Post by
Rankkor
Unfortunately that conversation doesn't really confirm anything yet. I guess we'll find out eventually when we see the actual circumstances on the Broken Shore zone. Depending on how its played out, either its left ambiguous with room for interpretation, or its actually decisively indisputably confirmed.
Post by
morginar
Correct, what with happen with young Vol'jin is quite unknown, though it's a shame to end a character like that. He was unable to show is ability to lead the horde becouse now Sylvanas is the leader.
I bet it's becouse blizzard wants to run a zombie versus werewolf storyline. With both being on the top of their factions. (anduin to young to lead or not picked as high king)
Also if he meets his end. Will that mean there are two horde races without leader? And should Sylvanas. Three.
Post by
Skreeran
Also if he meets his end. Will that mean there are two horde races without leader? And should Sylvanas. Three.They'll probably just make Thrall the leader for all three.
Post by
Rankkor
Also if he meets his end. Will that mean there are two horde races without leader? And should Sylvanas. Three.They'll probably just make Thrall the leader for all three.
Unlikely. If they intended for Thrall to lead anyone, they would have made him the leader of the orcs already, but they haven't. Instead, they're stripping him off his most iconic weapon (And symbol of orc leadership) and of his powers (partially anyways, he still has them, but weaker).
Post by
oneforthemoney
Well if he won't step up to the damn plate and lead the orcs again then he may as well give up the Doomhammer. It's the job literally no one else wants apparently and he's not exactly doing anything these days anyway. If he wants to fix the mistakes Garrosh made he should put himself into a position to do it, rather than mope about how awful Garrosh. Cataclysm was more than three years ago in game time. Is the Earthen Ring so lost without him?
I think that's what bugs me about Thrall right now. What's he even doing? After Cataclysm he was just kind of...there all the time. He wasn't leader of the Horde, the Earthen Ring rarely was involved in wherever he showed up. It's just so...odd.
Post by
Rankkor
Two partial explanations were provided on why hasn't he reclaimed the mantle of warchief when the cataclysm ended.
The first was given in the 5.1 storyline. I didn't like it, but it was hard to argue against it. I'm gonna quote it.
This is gonna be a little paraphrased because A: I have no screenshots of this stuff. B: nobody docummented this stuff on the wowpedia, and C: its been almost 2 years since I did this quest (damn..... time sure does fly)
At one point in the 5.1 questline, if you're horde, you get to ask thrall why doesn't he do something about garrosh. Thrall asks something along the lines of "Like what? Kill him" And when you say yes, he responds with:
"
I could confront Garrosh directly, yes, but I see now that not all orcs share MY view of the horde. The orcs have changed. My horde, has changed. Do I start killing my fellow orcs until it is "my" horde again? Do I even have any right to force the horde to be what I want it to be? Who am I to command their allegiance and loyalty, if I must become another dictator to do so? How different from garrosh would I be then?
"
:S I mean,....... come on, its hard to argue against that.
Once garrosh was removed from leadership, he refused both the mantle of Warchief of the Horde, and the mantle of Chieftain of the Clans, because he felt unworthy for the title. This is another thing that's hard to argue. He had a HUGE bias towards garrosh, for no other reason that he was Grom's son. Since this was the son of his idol, it blinded him to the many many many flaws the little a-hole had, and made him recklessly put him in a position the fool simply wasn't ready to accept. That has caused him no small amounts of guilt, so he feels he's no longer worthy to lead anyone.
And those are the two reasons why he hasn't stepped into the role of leadership since cata. Not because he was busy, far from it, he doesn't even leads the Earthen Ring (That's Muln Earthfury), but because of the above-stated reasons.
I'll be returning to wow in april(ish) and when I do, I'm gonna do again the 5.1 questline on an alt, so I can properly screenshot the actual conversation. He lays some pretty compelling arguments for why he didn't return to be a Warchief at the end of cata, and why he didn't confront garrosh sooner during MoP.
I believe I've linked this before, but
THIS
is the Thrall I miss. The badass warrior-liberator he was in Warcraft 3.
Not the mopey henpecked guilt-ridden shell he is today.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
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