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Post by
oneforthemoney
Should have kept the hood. He looks too plain now.
Post by
Rankkor
Should have kept the hood. He looks too plain now.
I can understand why he'd get rid of his old armor. That thing had Kirin Tor iconography
everywhere
. After the purge of dalaran, wearing that thing must be like wearing a swastika for him. Its the exact same reason why when I complete the legendary ring, I'm
not
gonna put that monument on my garrison. Kirin Tor, ALL OF THEM, are persona non grata for me.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Could have at least kept a hood and some shoulder pads. He looks like a starting zone NPC. I keep expecting him to tell me to kill some pigs and bring back their livers.
Post by
cephadex
Are you sure about that? I mean
This
doesn't leave a whole lot of room for interpretation.
Dear, that's the sha or whatever manipulating them into strife, it can't be taken at face value. Also, I didn't know female alliance players made the male charging sound when charging, see what I miss out on due to sucking at PVP?
Nah, he's not. Kael was a blonde. Aethas is a
ginger
.
Lol... well I suppose that's conclusive enough evidence. Seriously though, don't ruin this for me, Aethas being Kael'thas makes the whole Aethas-Rommath bickering (and later saving) about a million percent better, not to mention the bickering between Aethas and Jaina...
Aethas is really Kael'thas
Never really noticed the connection between their names before. The Sunwell was merely a setback.
And the fact that at the start of WotlK Aethas appeared in exactly Kael's old position in The Six... my guess is that maybe someone at Bliz was being whimsical and since that time they probably decided to do something else with it, but it would make such a good story on so many levels that it's still my headcanon for Aethas.
Should have kept the hood. He looks too plain now.
I can understand why he'd get rid of his old armor. That thing had Kirin Tor iconography
everywhere
. After the purge of dalaran, wearing that thing must be like wearing a swastika for him. Its the exact same reason why when I complete the legendary ring, I'm
not
gonna put that monument on my garrison. Kirin Tor, ALL OF THEM, are persona non grata for me.
Yeah, how about that mage tier set that has the Kirin Tor emblem on it regardless of your faction?
Post by
Rankkor
Are you sure about that? I mean
This
doesn't leave a whole lot of room for interpretation.
Dear, that's the sha or whatever manipulating them into strife, it can't be taken at face value.
Maybe not at face value, but the sha doesn't manipulate your mind, it just amplifies your thoughts into extremes. Aethas was very unpleased with how the elves were being treated by the horde (Specifically Garrosh) and he wanted them free from his oppression. He was even willing to serve as mediator between Silvermoon and the alliance to negotiate a full defection of the blood elves. So yeah, he never really was the biggest fan of the horde after garrosh took over. He fully endorsed the horde cause back when Thrall was the Warchief (man, those were the days) but Garrosh took the horde into probably the worst place its been since the second war. Cant' really blame him for resenting the warchief for that.
Nah, he's not. Kael was a blonde. Aethas is a
ginger
.
Lol... well I suppose that's conclusive enough evidence. Seriously though, don't ruin this for me
Hehehe, didn't meant to, I'm just saying, Kael'thas didn't look so good last time we saw him (what with the whole fel crystal embedded in his chest, and him looking like a crack addict without his fix, and going bald), indicating that he was already on his way to become a
Wretched
(or had become one already). Plus, we kinda
behead
him after we do the quel'danas stuff.........
So yeah.
Then again, we also beheaded Nefarian
and
Onyxia and they both came back....... sorta.
In the words of Arthas: "
does nobody stay dead anymore?
"
Should have kept the hood. He looks too plain now.
I can understand why he'd get rid of his old armor. That thing had Kirin Tor iconography
everywhere
. After the purge of dalaran, wearing that thing must be like wearing a swastika for him. Its the exact same reason why when I complete the legendary ring, I'm
not
gonna put that monument on my garrison. Kirin Tor, ALL OF THEM, are persona non grata for me.
Yeah, how about that mage tier set that has the Kirin Tor emblem on it regardless of your faction?
That's...... exactly what he was wearing. Mage Tier 8 Armor. Which had the emblem of the Kirin Tor in at least like 6 different parts of the body. So its understandable he'd want nothing to do with it after what those bastards did to him.
I do agree that his replacement armor should have been something a little more impressive than the extremely simplistic robe he uses now.
Post by
Morec0
Hmmm, crazy thought:
What if Kilrogg's violent reaction to the felblood was because the orcs HADN'T been using Fel Magic up to that point?
Think of the use of demonic magic as a way of easing them into demonic corruption. Without that, partaking in demonic blood could have violent after effects - such as what happened to Grom and the Warsong when the partook of Manoroth's blood a second time after swearing off demonic magic for some time.
The likes of the Outland fel orcs and felblood elves could simply have been due to over exposure to fel magic via experimentation - their transformations ARE a little more... elegant that what Kilrogg became (expecially the felblood elves).
Post by
Adamsm
Considering the original Fel Blood Drinking turned Grom from a wiry thin orc into the massive muscle bound beefcake we all know and love...it's not unexpected; it could also be that this Fel Blood was spiked so that the orcs are going to be devoted slaves to Gul'dan and Archimonde hence the new funky fresh gray skin and the spines showing up early.
Post by
Morec0
Considering the original Fel Blood Drinking turned Grom from a wiry thin orc into the massive muscle bound beefcake we all know and love...it's not unexpected; it could also be that this Fel Blood was spiked so that the orcs are going to be devoted slaves to Gul'dan and Archimonde hence the new funky fresh gray skin and the spines showing up early.
Yeah, that's another theory of mine - Gul'dan used his own blood for this.
Post by
Atik
Considering the original Fel Blood Drinking turned Grom from a wiry thin orc into the massive muscle bound beefcake we all know and love...it's not unexpected; it could also be that this Fel Blood was spiked so that the orcs are going to be devoted slaves to Gul'dan and Archimonde hence the new funky fresh gray skin and the spines showing up early.
Yeah, that's another theory of mine - Gul'dan used his own blood for this.
Seems like he would be a little light-headed if he made enough for the whole Orc population.
Post by
Morec0
Considering the original Fel Blood Drinking turned Grom from a wiry thin orc into the massive muscle bound beefcake we all know and love...it's not unexpected; it could also be that this Fel Blood was spiked so that the orcs are going to be devoted slaves to Gul'dan and Archimonde hence the new funky fresh gray skin and the spines showing up early.
Yeah, that's another theory of mine - Gul'dan used his own blood for this.
Seems like he would be a little light-headed if he made enough for the whole Orc population.
*drain blood*
*drain life*
*drain blood*
*drain life*
*drain blood*
*ect.*
Post by
Rankkor
Not really, I mean, Gul'dan was heavily using fel magic for a while before Garrosh arrived in AU!Draenor, and yet when it was his turn to drink (in this timeline, it was neither Grom, nor Kil'rogg who was first to drink, it was gul'dan) in the short comic "Gul'dan and the Stranger" we saw that he chained himself and he convulses violently as his skin starts to turn green.
I still am kinda curious as to why the fel blood turned the orcs into mutated monstrosities. Gul'dan drank first, and he just became green with red eyes, the rest of his shadow council orcs drank too and also became green instantly (rather than over the years as it was in the original timeline). I'm still of the theory that the differences in mutations from every race we've seen drinking demon blood is attributed to different demons being the donors. I mean, Blood Elves who drank sprouted wings, and vampiric fangs, and strange facial markings. But none of these happened to the orcs who drank. Likewise the mutations of orcs who drank (Green skin, spikes on the back, and becoming bloated versions of The Hulk) never manifested into the elves either.
Now we have AU!Orcs drinking and suddenly turning purple, growing tentacles and claws, and sprouting tumors and fleshy growths all over their face and torso. WTF?(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
Probably tied into the whole Pale Orc mystery.
Post by
Atik
I'm personally betting on an Old God reveal.
Blizzard must be itching for an Old God raid by now.
Post by
cephadex
Oh I don't like getting into these arguments, it just goes on and on and you have your mind set without room for seeing it another way.
Dear, that's the sha or whatever manipulating them into strife, it can't be taken at face value.
Maybe not at face value, but the sha doesn't manipulate your mind, it just amplifies your thoughts into extremes. Aethas was very unpleased with how the elves were being treated by the horde (Specifically Garrosh) and he wanted them free from his oppression. He was even willing to serve as mediator between Silvermoon and the alliance to negotiate a full defection of the blood elves. So yeah, he never really was the biggest fan of the horde after garrosh took over. He fully endorsed the horde cause back when Thrall was the Warchief (man, those were the days) but Garrosh took the horde into probably the worst place its been since the second war. Cant' really blame him for resenting the warchief for that.
As I said before, I don't think there's a point in even discussing anyone 'wanting to leave the horde because of Garrosh,' because in MoP Garrosh was a cardboard cutout of a stereotypical villain. It's been a while since I'd done that quest chain with the BEs,but again in an overly simplistic way Garrosh ended up being single-handedly responsible for the tension between Lor'themar and Jaina in that he used the horde's position within the Kirin Tor to steal the Divine Bell (and I would have done the same because s***w you Alliance, but I digress), which it turned out Aethas found out about ahead of time, but was afraid of saying anything because supposedly then Garrosh would eat him, and Garrosh was so evil, and so on.
(Source: Wowpedia:
Blizzard intended for an extra scene that bugged out and didn't show up in the actual game. While the Horde was stealing the from Darnassus, Aethas was supposed to stumble upon our portal and admonish us for using Kirin Tor resources for the war effort. One of the orcs accompanying us threatens Aethas into backing down. Had Aethas gone to Jaina with his discovery, Garrosh would have known exactly who spilled the beans and it would have put a lot of Blood Elf lives in immediate danger. Aethas gambled on Jaina's wrath being less severe than Garrosh's.
)
At any rate, I don't really take any of that to mean that Aethas' passion was to separate from the horde; this bit strikes me more as one of countless examples of NPCs reacting to Garrosh being 'so bad' more than anything else; Aethas' main passion was his loyalty to the Kirin Tor, if you want to take the 'Garrosh is so bad' bit to mean that his main passion was separating from the horde because he hates Garrosh, go for it, but that's just bad writing in my opinion:
of course
everyone would hate a guy who was written as a stereotypical absolute villain who was responsible for everyone's problems, that's just a dumb plot.
Hehehe, didn't meant to, I'm just saying, Kael'thas didn't look so good last time we saw him (what with the whole fel crystal embedded in his chest, and him looking like a crack addict without his fix, and going bald), indicating that he was already on his way to become a
Wretched
(or had become one already). Plus, we kinda
behead
him after we do the quel'danas stuff.........
So yeah.
Then again, we also beheaded Nefarian
and
Onyxia and they both came back....... sorta.
In the words of Arthas: "
does nobody stay dead anymore?
"
Now I feel bad for being all ranty above because you were genuinely sweet here; anyway though, as you have seen, Bliz brings back whoever they want; you could come up with some story for how Kael comes back even after he'd been in bad form (though tbh him coming back in MgT was bad storytelling as well, and really, everything they did with Kael'thas in WoW was bad storytelling in my opinion, but I digress).
But as for the 'how he comes back,' for example: in TK when we killed him, we took one of his verdant spheres, he came back as wretched, etc, and I guess the implication was that he went so far overboard with his addiction to magic that he didn't control it properly and became wretched. But that shouldn't really have that much to do with either the fact that we killed/nearly killed him, or that we took his verdant sphere. I even accept that you could say he turned wretched pretty rapidly, while you'd expect it to be a slower and more gradual process-- like maybe you could say he went so overboard so fast that for him the transformation was rapid. But that still isn't really all that related to him being nearly killed or the verdant sphere bit.
So say those are two separate things, and that maybe he's somehow able to use the souls trapped in the verdant spheres to come back to life or avoid dying in some way, and maybe the fact that now he had only two left had something to do with him rapidly going wretched, or that it was a combination of wretched and being one third dead, I don't know. So then he still has two spheres left and is still able to come back after being slain and beheaded, etc, and maybe he actually looks really horrific, but because he's a well practiced sorcerer he can put up a guise of looking like a normal BE like Aethas.
I don't know, just throwing that completely out at random, not something very well thought out, but the point is that considering all the awful storytelling and plot progression Warcraft had suffered, it's hardly difficult to come up with something at least as bad as a reason to bring some character back. But I don't want them to bring Kael back in-game because at this point they had just done it in such bad ways, and they should have left well enough alone after TK. Really, they should have just left well enough alone in WC3 and not dragged him out again like this.
Still though, after the absolute loathing that existed between Rommath and Aethas, and how Rommath had warned Aethas countless times about how much the Kirin Tor sucked, Rommath found himself having to rescue Aethas from Dalaran during the purge-- and I imagine that after the fact, back at the Spire, he probably paced back and forth while shouting at Aethas for ages about what an idiot he was-- and Aethas said nothing the whole time; then, he just held out his hands to Rommath,
and inside his hands was a tiny baby reborn Al'ar
,
and Rommath realized he was Kael'thas...
Yeah, how about that mage tier set that has the Kirin Tor emblem on it regardless of your faction?
That's...... exactly what he was wearing. Mage Tier 8 Armor. Which had the emblem of the Kirin Tor in at least like 6 different parts of the body. So its understandable he'd want nothing to do with it after what those bastards did to him.
I do agree that his replacement armor should have been something a little more impressive than the extremely simplistic robe he uses now.
That's what I was getting at... I was agreeing with you...
Post by
Stabhorn
I'm sad that Garrosh is dead.
NO, WAIT!
Put down the pitchforks and torches for a moment, please. I shall explain.
I wanted to watch him witness what is happening. I wanted to sit back and laugh as the Iron Horde became slaves to the Legion once more, and he would have been powerless to stop it! So yes, I'm sad that he's dead. I wanted to watch him suffer.
Post by
Rankkor
Oh I don't like getting into these arguments, it just goes on and on and you have your mind set without room for seeing it another way.
Awww D= but I like these arguments, even if we don't find common ground, I find it interesting to see the different points of view of other people. And for the record, I do change my mind sometimes. Not often of course, but sometimes :P
When I first joined these forums my opinion of Varian was nothing short of abysmal. But through countless debates with other members and getting to see him through their eyes, my opinion of varian changed. I still don't like him, but I don't hate him anywhere near enough as much as I did back in 2009.
Dear, that's the sha or whatever manipulating them into strife, it can't be taken at face value.
Maybe not at face value, but the sha doesn't manipulate your mind, it just amplifies your thoughts into extremes. Aethas was very unpleased with how the elves were being treated by the horde (Specifically Garrosh) and he wanted them free from his oppression. He was even willing to serve as mediator between Silvermoon and the alliance to negotiate a full defection of the blood elves. So yeah, he never really was the biggest fan of the horde after garrosh took over. He fully endorsed the horde cause back when Thrall was the Warchief (man, those were the days) but Garrosh took the horde into probably the worst place its been since the second war. Cant' really blame him for resenting the warchief for that.
As I said before, I don't think there's a point in even discussing anyone 'wanting to leave the horde because of Garrosh,' because in MoP Garrosh was a cardboard cutout of a stereotypical villain.
Why not? This particular point was brought up because we were talking about the Kirin Tor being founded by humans who befriended elves. And the friendship had been going strong for 2000 years, so Aethas didn't want to jeopardize that due to the whims of a warmongering warchief. I was aware of the missing cutscene that shows how Aethas was innocent of the theft of the divine bell, which goes to further explain why he wanted the elves to leave the horde. The very warchief of the horde was blackmailing him into allowing his own forces to be used, under fear of reprisal.
IF the elves were no longer part of the horde, Garrosh's threats would've been hollow. I agree with you that Garrosh's handling was nothing short of pathetic. He came across as an extremely tripolar person (yeah, tripolar, bipolar just doesn't cut it) that kept changing personalities and stances at the drop of a hat, never keeping a consistent characterization, and in the end becoming one of the most over-the-top caricatures of a villain. The only thing missing from him was a mustache for him to twirl, and tie a helpless blond girl to a train track while he goes
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA >=D
.
At any rate, I don't really take any of that to mean that Aethas' passion was to separate from the horde
Why not? Garrosh had just used his people to commit a pretty horrible action, and then threatened them if they refused. On pandaria garrosh had threatened to behead the entire team of Reliquary elves if they didn't find the Divine Bell (Despite garrosh himself hampering their efforts by sabotaging them
at every turn
).
This is a guy that was not only a threat to his people, it was also damaging his friendship with people he viewed as brothers. So I interpret that as him wanting to put distance between his people and this guy who was treating them worse than dirt.
if you want to take the 'Garrosh is so bad' bit to mean that his main passion was separating from the horde because he hates Garrosh, go for it, but that's just bad writing in my opinion
Well, yeah, its bad writing, but still, what's why I view his lines (both before, during, and after the sha possession) as him wanting to break free of the horde. Not because the horde was bad or anything, but because the current leader of the horde was fast on his way to become a bigger danger to the blood elves than the actual alliance. Lor'themar chose a third option. Rather than stay and be oppressed by garrosh, or leave to join an alliance that had just butchered his people, he chose instead to rebel. I'm still sad Lor'themar never made it to Warchief :( he was a bonafide BAMF in MoP and I would've loved to see him get more relevance.
Plus it would encourage to implement more blood elven architecture on the horde. Seriously, I've just about had it with the mud huts and spikes >_>
Now I feel bad for being all ranty above because you were genuinely sweet here;
Aww =D
Don't be, I like rants (When they're done like the way we've been doing them, mutual respect, no namecalling etc). Some days I think about changing my forum name to Rantkor xD
anyway though, as you have seen, Bliz brings back whoever they want; you could come up with some story for how Kael comes back even after he'd been in bad form
No kidding :( this franchise is probably the second biggest example of the trope
Death is Cheap
. Second only to Dragon Ball.
Its like Death is nothing more than a slap on the wrist. Lots of good and bad guys die and they still come back with little to no explanation for it.
everything they did with Kael'thas in WoW was bad storytelling in my opinion
Yeah =/ for me him and Sylvanas have been horribly handled in this game.
In Warcraft 3 they were mavericks, people who don't play by the book, they cheat, and play dirty, and do whatever it takes because their sole motivation is to protect their people/avenge their people respectively. Then all of this gets tossed to the side in wow, where Kael callously abandons their people to their fate because he's too busy sucking up to demons (Figuratively, then later literally), and Sylvanas goes from putting her people first, to being a complete psycho that has a "We have reserves" mentality once she got her valks.
Both of them were among my favorite characters in Warcraft 3. These days, I'd not shed a tear if either of them left. Come to think of it, this game has harmed pretty much EVERYONE from Warcraft 3. Because Thrall and Jaina were my ultimate favorite characters in Warcraft 3, and now Jaina is someone I want nothing more than slap around until she's blue, then purple, then blue again, and Thrall has become an emasculated crybaby and a shadow of his former self.
At this point I think the only least-damaged character from War3 that has been mishandled in wow was Muradin. And time will tell how long that'll last.
That's what I was getting at... I was agreeing with you...
hehehe yeah, I realized that about 5 min after I posted that. Its the disadvantage of having english be a secondary language to me. Sometimes it glitches out on me, and I misinterpret something I read in a different way, only to realize my error later on. Its caused me countless problems =/
Garrosh ended up being single-handedly responsible for the tension between Lor'themar and Jaina in that he used the horde's position within the Kirin Tor to steal the Divine Bell (
and I would have done the same because s***w you Alliance, but I digress
)
This is something that really pisses me off. Why is it that the horde using Kirin Tor resources to gain an edge in their war against the alliance such a heinous crime, but the alliance doing the same is totally okay? I mean, the Kirin Tor sent forces to defend Theramoore including their leader, in a blatant breach of neutrality. And Jaina, the new leader of the Kirin Tor, was equally blatantly breaching neutrality by magically warding an alliance capital.
But suddenly the horde using kirin tor resources to take back an artifact that they found first in the first place(*), is suddenly a complete betrayal that warrants and justifies an ethnic purge? what the hell?
I'm sad that Garrosh is dead.
NO, WAIT!
Put down the pitchforks and torches for a moment, please. I shall explain.
*cautiously putting them down*
I wanted to watch him witness what is happening. I wanted to sit back and laugh as the Iron Horde became slaves to the Legion once more, and he would have been powerless to stop it! So yes, I'm sad that he's dead. I wanted to watch him suffer.
Considering the way he was characterized, it wouldn't had fazed him in the least if he saw what the orcs became. He has adopted the mentality of "Never my fault" whenever
anything
goes wrong.
Old Horde got defeated during the second war = They were weak for having to depend on the pathetic weakling races of azeroth (very hypocritical considering how much he depended on the mechanical genius of the blackfuse company)
He decides to make a "True Horde" that is made of only orcs, for only orcs (with hired goblins) to solve that problem, but they get defeated too = They were weak green-skinned orcs, if I had an army of pure uncorrupted orcs we'd totally kick ass.
He makes a new Iron Horde of uncorrupted orcs wielding modern tech to kick ass....... and they get the most crippling defeat, to the point that out of all the threats we've had to face this was the one that caused the least amount of damage = This is all gul'dan's fault, I'll just travel to another timeline, murder my other self from there so he doesn't interferes, murder gul'dan so there's no way for demons to corrupt us, and try again.
He's no longer in touch with reality. All his failures he automatically shifts them to other people (Thrall, warlocks, non-orcs, weakness, etc). He's a metaphor for the current president of my country Venezuela. (and sorry for bringing politics into this topic)
(*)Yes, the horde were more entitled to have the bell, considering it was the elves who found out about its existence in the first place, did all the leg work to locate it, and figured out its exact position in the first place. The alliance had to
steal
all of this information to beat us to the punch.
Post by
Nulgar
The only thing missing from him was a mustache for him to twirl, and tie a helpless blond girl to a train track while he goes
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA >=D
.
Wait, wasn't that the plot of Tides of War?
Post by
morginar
Whilst having a cheap death can be seen as bad it is not inherently bad as it can do good storytelling. How does a high fantasy civilization look like when people can resurrect others or themselves?
How does law and order work when capital punishment isn't 100% guarantee that the criminal is going to stay down?
For me personally I want Kael'thas to return. Much more than Illidan.
One of the ideas I've had is that the MGT kael wasn't him but a poor and weaker copy to device the elves. (How else can a raid boss go to dung boss?) And the original Keal'thas is still out there with Aleria Windrunner.
But suddenly the horde using kirin tor resources to take back an artifact that they found first in the first place(*), is suddenly a complete betrayal that warrants and justifies an ethnic purge? what the hell?
Considering it was just a few spies who did it. Aethas just found out about it bit late, before Jaina granted. I find it strange that ethnic purges can ever be justified. Angry or not, wrong is wrong.
And Jaina didn't go berserk on demons for Archimonde when be destroyed dalaran. So whats the fuss with the horde? Especially when she assisted the alliance to attack the horde in the barrens and in durotar.
Post by
Stabhorn
(How else can a raid boss go to dung boss?)
I raise Garrosh as an answer. He went from Raid Boss to quest mob.
Loken technically should have been a raid boss too, since he was the most powerful of the Keepers. Its all a matter of where Blizz wants to put them. Being in a Raid or Dungeon doesn't necessarily diminish their power.
Post by
Rankkor
Yep. I'm willing to put money that Ner'zhul was stronger than Kargath, despite him being a 5man rather than a raid boss.
Boss strength is relative. From a gameplay perspective, Precious and Stinky in Icecrown Citadel dealt way more damage and had far more health than King Ymiron, the leader of a race devoted to war, the Vrykul. That doesn't really mean they were lorewise stronger than him.
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