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Post by
Adamsm
there will be no ScourgeNecromancy was still done on Azeroth; there is always a chance of the Scourge and the Cult of the Damned.
Post by
Rankkor
...orc fan...
Disregarded.
=/ come on man, be nice.
There's forsaken fans on this board too, that doesn't mean their taste is any less valid than yours or mine.
Totally agree. I was really ready to counterpoint his entire post, but when I read "orc fan" I ended up just disregarding it
Still, saying it like that, is kinda rude =/ it'd be better to just not say anything at all. Also, just because someone is an orc fan doesn't make them complete fanatics impossible to reason with. There's 3 members of this board that are huge orc fans (Biggest one has to be skreeran) and they're paragons of reason and civility and debate. Someone being a fanatic zealot has nothing to do with what race they like the most on the game, or what faction they like best. Its just down to their personality.
Believe it or not, I've seen INSANE gnome fans on other forums that are 2 steps away from psychotically obsessed with the race and are impossible to debate with without them resorting to personal attacks. Is it because they like gnomes? nope, they'd be the same way even if they liked whatever.
firsly because it'd be useless to convince him the opposite and to avoid even more nit picking here. ^_^
Secondly, the point of a debate is never to "convince the opposite side". Its about expressing 2 contrasting opinions, and informing/explaining the other side your reasoning. Sometimes a common ground is found between the two sides, and sometimes its not, but the idea is never to try to "convert" someone to your side. That's not only impossible, it festers the wrong type of debate, because our convictions are often a key part of who we are.
Lastly, Cephadex is a girl :P
Don't see this as a moderator action, you haven't broken any rules and you're not in any type of trouble. Look at it as a fellow user pointing it out that its kinda rude to say something like that =/
If you feel disinclined to debunk the point of someone, its best to just not say anything at all. Highlighting the bit where they say "I like X" and then using that as a basis to dismiss them is very unbecoming of you.
Post by
morginar
I have a somewhat related question to you, Lore fans:
What can we be sure that never happened on AU Azeroth?
AU Azeroth will not have a future.
Medivh will probably just hire someone compitent and blow up the planet. It being orcs was ideal for Azeroth.
Broxigar never went back in time with Rhonin to deal a decisive blow in the "remake" version of the War of the Ancients.
By remake, you mean another timeline? Rhonins adventure didn't affect our timeline. Night elves where able to deal with the burning legion without a orc and human.
Edit: Also Rankkor, will you post something in your draenor A vs B thread?
Post by
matheus314
there will be no ScourgeNecromancy was still done on Azeroth; there is always a chance of the Scourge and the Cult of the Damned.
Point taken, at least, without the LK, they wouldn't be nearly as powerful.
Don't see this as a moderator action, you haven't broken any rules and you're not in any type of trouble. Look at it as a fellow user pointing it out that its kinda rude to say something like that =/
If you feel disinclined to debunk the point of someone, its best to just not say anything at all. Highlighting the bit where they say "I like X" and then using that as a basis to dismiss them is very unbecoming of you.
No worries. I guess I expressed me badly, I wasn't going to try to "convince" a fan that his/her idol is wrong/bad. I meant that I disregarded it by acknowledging it was a fan talking, so I took it with a big grain of salt. It was never my intention to convert anyone to any side.
Broxigar never went back in time with Rhonin to deal a decisive blow in the "remake" version of the War of the Ancients.
By remake, you mean another timeline? Rhonins adventure didn't affect our timeline. Night elves where able to deal with the burning legion without a orc and human.
I said "remake" because Rhonin altered the past without changing (much) the present.
Post by
morginar
I said "remake" because Rhonin altered the past without changing (much) the present.
They didn't change the present becouse it's a diffrent timeline. Like how we aren't changing the present when we go to draenor.
In WoA trilogy, they kill Hakkar in the past and the present, thats a sign of a AU. If they had killed him in the past he woun't be alive in the present and their deeds in the past would have already been done.
Post by
Adamsm
I said "remake" because Rhonin altered the past without changing (much) the present.
They didn't change the present becouse it's a diffrent timeline. Like how we aren't changing the present when we go to draenor.
In WoA trilogy, they kill Hakkar in the past and the present, thats a sign of a AU. If they had killed him in the past he woun't be alive in the present and their deeds in the past would have already been done.
Aye War of the Ancients changed a lot of things in the present due to the mess they made.
Also....The Scourge can still be a major league threat, except this time it wouldn't be fractured from within as Ner'zhul was plotting things; it would be the Scourge to sweep all of the living away in the hands of the Dreadlords.
Post by
Rankkor
All in all though, AU!Azeroth is screwed. Without a horde to invade them, the burning legion would finish that world. Almost every single bad guy has been defeated by a combination of the alliance and the horde joining forces. With no horde to join them over, the alliance would had never formed in the first place, and in-fighting would doubtlessly weaken them up leaving them soft for the second legion invasion.
Also Adamsm, the scourge is not a constant, notice how in the alternate timeline that Thrall visited where he was never born, there never was a scourge, Arthas was even old enough to have children.
The legion created the scourge to pave the way for their return. If the world had fallen into civil war and disarray (as was the case on the timeline where Blackmoore was King of Lordaeron) they would be weak enough to no longer need a herald force to pave the way.
Post by
matheus314
I'm very cautious on believing on the "without the horde there won't be an alliance therefore the legion would breeze though azeroth" plot. The humans/dwarves/elves would still have the troll empire, the aqir and the nerubians to face as enemies to get battlehardened. Not to mention that friggin' Ragnaros have nothing to do with the orc invasion, so he'd probably still be summoned in Blackrock Mountain. And Old Gods.
One thing we can assume is that the Tauren would had a very bad time facing the centaurs in Kalimdor... And I'm sure the Night Elves wouldn't be as welcoming as they are now in our Azeroth.
Post by
Rankkor
I'm very cautious on believing on the "without the horde there won't be an alliance therefore the legion would breeze though azeroth" plot.
There's a reason why we fight like hell to prevent the Infinite Dragonflight from changing the past on the first two instances, both of which involve them trying to prevent the horde from ever forming (first by preventing the orcs from entering azeroth, then by preventing Thrall from escaping and rallying them into a new horde)
The legion is defeated by a combination of the alliance and the horde. Without either of them, the world would fall. That's a fact. Medivh says so too during warcraft 3, against that shadow, nobody can stand alone.
the troll empire
It was thoroughly vanquished long before the orcs set foot into azeroth and they never truly recovered to be a credible threat to society at large.
the aqir
Which were defeated by a combination of alliance and horde. Without either of them, those would had won too. Remember who was the supreme commander of the Might of Kalimdor that led azeroth to victory? Yep, Saurfang, who was also the one who killed the highest amount of bugs out of any other soldier in the history of forever.
and the nerubians
They were never hostile in the first place, they were content in living underground and never ventured to the surface world until the scourge forced them to. They only went hostile when reanimated into living dead.
Now I'll remind you that after the alliance defeated the horde at the end of the second war, what exactly did they do? they came this close to actual civil war. They just fall into in-fighting when there's no threat to unite them under a single banner. The only reason they did not, was because they had leftover honor bounds from when they fought together in the war. If that war never took place, then they're still a bunch of strangers that never fought side-by-side in battle.
Once the legion invades, they'd each would just hurtle down and try to protect their lands and their interest first and foremost, rather than unite all forces under one. They were only able to do that the first time around because they had time, stormwind fell, and the survivors warned the other nations and united them as one over a couple of years. In the event of a legion invasion, that's a luxury they wont have. As proven when the scourge invaded and they single-handedly took down 3/4 of the alliance. And this was the hardened alliance, the non-hardened version would fall even quicker.
The central theme of the cloak legendary quest is that we are strong because of one another, not despite of it. Without a horde to hone them over, the alliance has no chance of surviving a second legion invasion. Every single major enemy that has posed a threat to the world has only been able to be defeated when both sides join forces.
Post by
Adamsm
I think you meant Quarji/Silithids; the Aqir were destroyed by the Trolls back at the dawn of civilized life on Azeroth...then the Trolls were destroyed by the Night Elves.
Post by
morginar
There's a reason why we fight like hell to prevent the Infinite Dragonflight from changing the past on the first two instances, both of which involve them trying to prevent the horde from ever forming (first by preventing the orcs from entering azeroth, then by preventing Thrall from escaping and rallying them into a new horde)
The legion is defeated by a combination of the alliance and the horde. Without either of them, the world would fall. That's a fact. Medivh says so too during warcraft 3, against that shadow, nobody can stand alone.
I think you forget that the only reason the alliance won the second war was becouse horde lost half their fighting force when Gul'dan turned on Doomhammer.
Should Medivh/Sargeras be unable to use the orcs he would simply hire someone else for the job, and that someone wouln't turn on himself.
That is why I think AU azeroth is doomed.
Post by
Adamsm
As proven when the scourge invaded and they single-handedly took down 3/4 of the alliance. And this was the hardened alliance, the non-hardened version would fall even quicker.To be fair....the Scourge had a 'secret' weapon that helped them take Capitol City; Arthas. I don't think AU Azeroth is doomed to be honest; Stormwind fell due to treachery after all. Without Garona being able to take down the strategist that is Llane, even the Legion may have an issue with going up against the forces of Stormwind. It would be a similar call to arms occurring again, just to defeat the Legion rather then the Horde.
Post by
Rankkor
As proven when the scourge invaded and they single-handedly took down 3/4 of the alliance. And this was the hardened alliance, the non-hardened version would fall even quicker.To be fair....the Scourge had a 'secret' weapon that helped them take Capitol City; Arthas. I don't think AU Azeroth is doomed to be honest; Stormwind fell due to treachery after all. Without Garona being able to take down the strategist that is Llane, even the Legion may have an issue with going up against the forces of Stormwind. It would be a similar call to arms occurring again, just to defeat the Legion rather then the Horde.
And it would fail just as well. Remember, no will-o-the-whisp army at hyjal = Legion wins.
Morgrinar also wielded a good point. Against the horde, the alliance won because the horde was betrayed from within. There is no such issue within the legion.
Even if they could rally themselves, it would just be the alliance against the legion, and the legion was only bested by the Horde and the Alliance combining their armies together. If it was just the horde, or just the alliance, then they would had lost. Individually they fall, together they win.
By not having a horde on this world, its just the alliance, alone against the legion, and against the old gods, and against the quiraj, and against all the other bad guys that so far have only fallen when the horde and alliance combine strengths.
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah...but in that same vein, it wouldn't be 'just the Alliance'; it would be the Grand Alliance, the force that did defeat the 'demonic' Horde. While there would be no Wisps, there would be fully powered Elven Magi and the Dalaran forces....and the Council(well maybe). It would be the 7 Kingdoms who again, would more then likely join and this time Alterac would probably not betray everyone else. You mentioned the Blackmoore thing; Blackmoore took over all of Lordaeron: Had the Legion ended up coming, I have a feeling that Blackmoore could have taken it with his Orcish army.
Also; how did Archimonde get to Azeroth? Due to the Hand of the Lich King and KT; those may not exist. While KT was obsessed with power, without the LK Ner'zhul to call him and create the Cult of the Damned, it may not fall the same way.
There are just too many unknowns to properly say yey or nay; I can't see the planet just rolling over. You mention Hyjal; if the entire Grand Alliance was there and not just the remnants of the Horde and the Lordaeron survivors, they may be able to hold them back. Remember in the original War of the Ancients the Night Elves won on their own; in the altered time line they had allies but the first time through it was just the Elves against the might of the Legion. The reason the war was worse this time was because of the Scourge and that Dalaran fell.
I don't think the world will end on AU Azeroth; without the Orcs, Medivh/Sargeras would be hard pressed to find something new to use.
Post by
matheus314
So the Alliance would lose the first war even without betrayals, but would never won the second war if there weren't betrayals in the horde side? Throw us a bone here, Rankkor, both wars could go either side if it weren't for the "inside jobs", and let's imagine if Alliance had won both of them, there would still be an amazing amount of battle-hardened people to fight the legion on third war.
That said, literally,
anything can happen
on a different timeline, that's why I asked
"what you're sure that won't happen on AU!Azeroth?"
, because we know that the horde never stepped into there.
Post by
Rankkor
Yeah...but in that same vein, it wouldn't be 'just the Alliance'; it would be the Grand Alliance, the force that did defeat the 'demonic' Horde.
Barely. Barely defeated the horde, and mostly because they had an internal betrayal. Granted, hypothetically, if that betrayal hadn't taken place, the horde would had also barely defeated the alliance.
While there would be no Wisps, there would be fully powered Elven Magi and the Dalaran forces....and the Council(well maybe). It would be the 7 Kingdoms who again, would more then likely join and this time Alterac would probably not betray everyone else.
The same kingdoms that fell to the scourge. Scourge could beat them, legion can beat them too.
You mentioned the Blackmoore thing; Blackmoore took over all of Lordaeron: Had the Legion ended up coming, I have a feeling that Blackmoore could have taken it with his Orcish army.
Maybe, but then his victory would still be because a joint force of orcs and humans fought together against the legion.
Also; how did Archimonde get to Azeroth? Due to the Hand of the Lich King and KT; those may not exist. While KT was obsessed with power, without the LK Ner'zhul to call him and create the Cult of the Damned, it may not fall the same way.
All archimonde needs is someone on azeroth to do the summoning. If the horde doesn't invade AU!Azeroth, then Medivh is still unexposed, he alone can do all the requirements to bring the legion to azeroth.
There are just too many unknowns to properly say yey or nay; I can't see the planet just rolling over. You mention Hyjal; if the entire Grand Alliance was there and not just the remnants of the Horde and the Lordaeron survivors, they may be able to hold them back.
Maybe
.
But you're not accounting that while in the main timeline the Grand Alliance was crippled by the scourge, on AU!Azeroth, the grand alliance (or rather, the individual kingdoms that make up the alliance) can also be crippled by the legion first before they make their move to Kalimdor.
Remember in the original War of the Ancients the Night Elves won on their own; in the altered time line they had allies but the first time through it was just the Elves against the might of the Legion. The reason the war was worse this time was because of the Scourge and that Dalaran fell.
Are you sure about that? I don't recall the allies being there only on the modified timeline.
I don't think the world will end on AU Azeroth; without the Orcs, Medivh/Sargeras would be hard pressed to find something new to use.
Without the orcs, they could had still created the scourge (given that the scourge was made of mostly humans) and just pick someone else to be the lich king. Or just skip the scourge altogether, if there is no united alliance, there is no need for an army to pave the way.
So the Alliance would lose the first war even without betrayals, but would never won the second war if there weren't betrayals in the horde side? Throw us a bone here, Rankkor
Not exactly the same thing dude. On the first war, Stormwind was playing defensively. They had no way to defeat the horde by themselves, so they basically hurdled inside their walls and hoped that the orcs would all recklessly throw themselves to their fortified defenses. The internal betrayal only sped up the inevitable, because Doomhammer was definitely gonna take over, and he would use way more pragmatic tactics to win that particular scenario. Such as blockade the castle and let the humans inside starve to death. Or use siege machines to attack from a safe distance.
The only tactic Blackhand knew was essentially the zerg rush.
Either way, they had absolutely zero way to defeat all of the horde just by themselves, and they had no way to send messengers outside for help either, and the rest of the world didn't know what was going on in stormwind due to the lack of tweeter.
Hell, the whole first war lasted a couple of years and the kingdoms of the north didn't even know the existence of the horde until the survivors of lordaeron arrived. And even then a lot of them were doubting their existence (coughgilneascough)
So their only hope for survival was to hide behind their walls and pray they would be strong enough to withstand a permanent siege by a near endless enemy force. That betrayal only sped up what was inevitable.
The betrayal on the horde side however, didn't took place while they were defending from a superior force. It happened while they were attacking, and if the betrayal hadn't taken place, Capital City would had fallen, and the alliance would had been defeated. As it is, with the betrayal, they almost broke through, and Terenas himself said that if they sent another wave, the defenses would fall and the city would crumble. Without the betrayal, its all but certain that the capital would had fallen.
Two completely different scenarios.
both wars could go either side if it weren't for the "inside jobs"
Not really. The first war was a slam-dunk, an unimaginably vast army of orcs besieging a lone single castle. They had no hope in hell to win.
I can concede on the second war though, because if Alterac hadn't betrayed the alliance, then Doomhammer would have had a much harder time reaching the capital, which in turn means that even if he hadn't been betrayed, maybe his victory wouldn't had been assured either. There were traitors inside both factions.
That said, literally, anything can happen on a different timeline, that's why I asked "what you're sure that won't happen on AU!Azeroth?", because we know that the horde never stepped into there.
And that's what I answered, on AU!Azeroth, the world is doomed because there is only half of its defenders against darkness.
Please don't think I'm implying the alliance is weak, and without the orcs they'd crumble. That's not what I'm saying. The exact same scenario would have happened if doomhammer had won the second war and had exterminated the humans, once the legion arrives, they (the horde being rulers of the world) would had lost and died too.
Because
both
factions are needed for azeroth's survival. Remove one or the other, and azeroth falls.
Post by
matheus314
Please don't think I'm implying the alliance is weak, and without the orcs they'd crumble. That's not what I'm saying. The exact same scenario would have happened if doomhammer had won the second war and had exterminated the humans, once the legion arrives, they (the horde being rulers of the world) would had lost and died too.
Because
both
factions are needed for azeroth's survival. Remove one or the other, and azeroth falls.
I agree completely and understand that this is what happened in our timeline. We'd be screwed withouth a joint force because both wars were terrbile for one side or the other.
the troll empire was thoroughly vanquished long before the orcs set foot into azeroth and they never truly recovered to be a credible threat to society at large.
Don't you think that the Zandalari Council wouldn't bring back the might of the Troll empire if the Horde (as we know today) had never been formed? Both the Amani and the Gurubashi looked pretty strong in both their strongholds. Not to mention the Drakkari in Northrend (without the threat of the LK they'd probably be at full strenght), the Darkspear would be joining for sure (they wouldn't be fools to oppose Zandalar without both factions backing them up) and the Zandalari itself, maybe allied to the Mogu.
Post by
Genieboi
The central theme of the cloak legendary quest is that we are strong because of one another, not despite of it. Without a horde to hone them over, the alliance has no chance of surviving a second legion invasion. Every single major enemy that has posed a threat to the world has only been able to be defeated when both sides join forces.
This I accept as Blizzard's way to tell us that AU!Azeroth is doomed but the bigger problem is how is that going to affect Draenor (and in this way us and our timeline) which will eventualy fall with nobody that we know to stop the Legion in this alternative scenario.
Post by
Adamsm
The same kingdoms that fell to the scourge. Scourge could beat them, legion can beat them too.Because they were betrayed from within; Arthas is the reason why they fell after all. By that logic, no one can win against the Legion since everyone has lost to them at some point. The only Alliance commander who may possibly betray them would be Perenolde...and he had the smallest kingdom and army.
Maybe, but then his victory would still be because a joint force of orcs and humans fought together against the legion.We actually don't know that; Blackmoore was pretty precise in conquering everyone with his Orcish Horde.
Are you sure about that? I don't recall the allies being there only on the modified timeline.Nope, Elves only in the original fight; re-read the Sundering legend.
Post by
Adamsm
In other news....Looks quite interesting.
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