This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
General Lore Discussions
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Skreeran
Well I've read War Crimes, and when asked, he completely denies feelings of guilt or responsibility for his choices (even though Baine then cleverly shows that those statements aren't true),
Post by
Rankkor
Haven't read war crimes, but on SoO, and on WoD he states that putting garrosh in charge was a terrible mistake on his end, and even makes him feel unworthy of ever leading the horde once more. THough in my opinion, the mistake of putting garrosh in place was an honest one anyone could had made. His actual screwup was not doing anything after garrosh started going insane.. THAT was really stupid, and there was no reason to not intervene during garrosh's slip down the slippery rope.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
Particularly as he seemed to be aware it was a major screw up even back in Cata, seen when he was split into pieces and screaming about Garrosh.
Post by
Rankkor
Particularly as he seemed to be aware it was a major screw up even back in Cata, seen when he was split into pieces and screaming about Garrosh.
Or with the conversation he had with Jaina on Tides of War.
So yeah, he wasn't unaware of what garrosh was doing, he knew, and did nothing. To me, that's his main mistake. Not putting garrosh as warchief. That one was an honest mistake anyone could had made, and at the time it was needed since he had to be elsewhere.
But once the business with the maelstrom was over with, he either had to take back the position of warchief, or he had to at least keep garrosh in line. He did neither and that's really his main major screw up.
Post by
Skreeran
Well, I'd still fault Thrall for putting Garrosh in his place. My Orc Warrior Nakresh sure does. Any orc who was raised with an Orcish mindset would have known that someone as ambitious as Garrosh, when put in a Chieftain position, would lead the Horde to war, that someone as brutal as Garrosh would lead the Horde to victory, and that someone as proud and prejudiced as Garrosh wouldn't stop conquering until he was defeated and killed.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I really dislike what's happened to Thrall's character. Mainly because its been erased and substituted for an absentee hobo daddy.
Post by
Rankkor
Remember however that Thrall wasn't seeing Garrosh as his own person, what he was basically seeing was Grom 2.0
His eyes were tinged with bias, and he believed, that by being Grom's Son, he'd have the best elements of his father since he had no demon blood on his veins. A fair asumption to make, but he should had at the very least tutor him in some form, admonish him when he screwed up (Beyond a superficial "you disappoint me garrosh", come on, he backhanded an officer that led an unsanctioned raid on a human village, but Garrosh ruins a peace conference and all he does is say "you disappoint me"? gimme a break T-man)
He went too soft on garrosh, on account of him being the son of someone he idolized. Someone less emotionally invested would had of course seen the kind of person that garrosh was, without juxtaposing him to his father on his later years.
Post by
Rankkor
I really dislike what's happened to Thrall's character. Mainly because its been erased and substituted for an deadbeat hobo daddy henpecked hubby.
Fixed.
I want "Warcraft 3 Thrall" back dammit >_>
Post by
Skreeran
Yeah, he screwed up, and he picked the wrong guy. He couldn't see through his rose-tinted goggles, but a Chieftain or a Warchief should be wiser than that. Cairne, a trusted advisor, vehemently disagreed with Thrall's judgment, but Thrall stubbornly clung to his own vision of Garrosh, and it ended up tearing the Horde apart. I, and Nakresh, both fully blame Thrall for his part in that. Besides not coming back and fixing his mistake, he also made the mistake in a first place. Nakresh doesn't feel that a more Orcish leader like Orgrim would have made a wiser decision.
Post by
Rankkor
Yeah, he screwed up, and he picked the wrong guy. He couldn't see through his rose-tinted goggles, but a Chieftain or a Warchief should be wiser than that.
True, but then again, every single King and Leader has made an equally stupid decision too. Often with near fatal consequences.
Sylvanas chose to trust a frikking dreadlord, letting her own ego blind her to the fact that dreadlords are the supreme masters of the art of backstabbing and she was setting herself up for a coup.
Mekkatorke chose to trust his advisor in nuking his own city to thwart an invasion. Do I need to explain why this is stupid?
the list goes on, but something that does gets on my nerves is that despite making a pretty long list of screw ups, people still label Thrall as a Mary Sue. By definition, Mary Sue characters are too perfect and never ever make mistakes, and if they do, they never get called out on it.
Everyone
both in-universe and IRL has called out the many mistakes of Thrall, from appointing Garrosh to warchief, to refusing to intervene when he did such a horrible job, to appointing gallywix, etc. He's received the "
What the hell hero
" speech far more than any other character in the franchise.
How come when other leaders make really stupid stupid calls, people quickly forget about them and are swept under the rug, or NEVER get called out on it, but Thrall and only Thrall's failures must be reminded forever? D=
not cool man, not cool.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Skreeran
I don't think Thrall is a Mary Sue, and I still think he's an interesting character whom I'd like to see developed more fully. But for Nakresh, Thrall was a hero. Thrall was the one who tore down the walls of the internment camp Nakresh grew up in, reassembled the Horde, gave the orcs their spirit back, and gave them a new home in Durotar. However, Nakresh's pedestal for Thrall has gradually eroded as he realized that Thrall was foreign to Orcish ways, and clearly lacked the understanding or will to make the decisions that were best for his people. Whether it be allowing the Forsaken to include a Dreadlord in their government (as Warchief, you must admit that he had the power to either remove Varimathras from his office, or deny Forsaken entry to the Horde if they refused), or his decisions about Garrosh (including taking him to all of his goddamned peace meetings!) including his general lack of a demand for the respect due his office (he took a LOT of sass from damn near everyone who supported Garrosh).
Post by
Rankkor
Hopefully they highlight Vol'jin doing a better job, but if they do, I doubt its gonna be on WoD, seeing as Vol'jin is mostly absent there. He's on azeroth, and we're stranded on draenor (Lorewise we can't get back, even though ingame, for gameplay reasons we can just hearth back)
Post by
matheus314
Sorry for the quick comeback, I couldn't stop myself for saying something about this.
Question:
How come when other leaders make really stupid stupid calls, people quickly forget about them and are swept under the rug, or NEVER get called out on it, but Thrall and only Thrall's failures must be reminded forever? D=
Answer:
people still label Thrall as a Mary Sue
In my opinion, Thrall has to go down. And go down HARD. He was the creator of the actual Horde, and deserve all the merit for it, but at the same time, he has showed more than once that he feels much better being a nice world-shaman than leading such an antagonistic faction (Varian does this very well). It'll be a major relief for the Orcs and the Horde as a whole. I was cheering for Garrosh to kill Thrall at the end of SoO... It would had made a world of difference.
OK, now I'm out. #Peace.
Post by
Rankkor
leading such an antagonistic faction (Varian does this very well). It'll be a major relief for the Orcs and the Horde as a whole.
Ohh you didn't.........
I............................No, I must resist the temptation, breathe in, rank, breathe out. Must resist the evil.
Phew, close one.
Post by
Stabhorn
leading such an antagonistic faction (Varian does this very well). It'll be a major relief for the Orcs and the Horde as a whole.
Ohh you didn't.........
I............................No, I must resist the temptation, breathe in, rank, breathe out. Must resist the evil.
Phew, close one.
Stand down men, Code Black averted.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I really dislike what's happened to Thrall's character. Mainly because its been erased and substituted for an deadbeat hobo daddy henpecked hubby.
Fixed.
I want "Warcraft 3 Thrall" back dammit >_>
That you did. Thank you.
The thing about W3 Thrall is that, unfortunately, we're never going to get him back, or even a piece of him really. We lost him the minute he decided to change his name and get rid of Doomhammer's armour. He's basically turned his back on his past to try and embrace a future and his orcish culture.
But the thing is, that means that Thrall basically threw out his responsibility to the Horde by doing so. He became the world shaman, earth aspect stand in, and I personally think that went a bit to his head. He is no longer Thrall the creator of the Horde, but Thrall the shaman who must maintain the balance of the world or whatever the hell. Sure that worked for him a bit during Cata, but afterwards I think he kept thinking this was him, and so he forgot his responsibility to the Horde he created. Thrall basically pulled a
Peterman
.
He isn't a Mary Sue, but I think it's more a result of Blizz's failure to write him than any success of the character itself.
Post by
Rankkor
He uses again his Doomhammer Black plate in WoD (Minus the shoulderpads) once more, the hobo robe now more of a longcoat, and for a few scenes in Frostfire Ridge we get to see the badass he was in warcraft 3, but yeah, War3-Thrall is long long gone. Much like War3-Jaina and War3-Tyrande.
Its uncanny how much World of Warcraft has managed to ruin almost the entire cast of Warcraft 3, which used to host some of my most favorite good guys and bad guys in videogaming in general. (WOTLK did a horrendous number in Arthas)
Post by
Adamsm
Well finished re-reading Rise of the Horde again....and Rank, hate to tell you this...but your wrong in regards to Durotan's Lords story. Bloodlust existed before the Demon Blood was drank; the Blackrocks experienced it during their first draenei kills, the Frostwolves fell to it during the invasion of Telmor. It's a part of the orcish mind set.
Post by
Rankkor
o_O I thought that was the Blood Rage, the orc racial ability. Wasn't the bloodlust what they experienced under the demon blood? you know, like how grom went when he drank from the chalice?
Unrelated note but:
This
+
This
=
This
Post by
Adamsm
Nope, they spoke about bloodlust rising as they killed them. The Demon Blood turned them into berserkers.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.