This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
General Lore Discussions
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Adamsm
Well it's 100% canon for Alternate Draenor; just not the main time line.
Post by
oneforthemoney
To be fair to Blizzard here, the orcs individually never had too much lore behind them until now. This is their frantic effort to create a more cohesive and interesting narrative for them they didn't feel the need for back during Warcraft 1 and 2, which were about the orcs invading, then invading the orcs. They never really had the need of giving the clans much of an identity outside of flavour text for the lore books. Even then, only maybe...four clans really mattered to the WoW universe.
Post by
cephadex
In the Lords of War episodes, Maraad is seen telling Varian stories from his past; he wouldn't be telling alternate lore if these are his memories... Also, I thought the whole point of these episodes is to inform people about the existing lore; I'm not really sure what point there would be in telling people alternate, new lore, especially if there was no big indication that it was alternate, which would confuse a lot of people.
Either way, admittedly and
very
regrettably I'm no expert on ogres, but I'm pretty sure there were ogre mages dating back to WC3, and mages are typically intelligent. Granted, they were probably in the minority, but they did exist.
Post by
Skreeran
To be fair to Blizzard here, the orcs individually never had too much lore behind them until now. This is their frantic effort to create a more cohesive and interesting narrative for them they didn't feel the need for back during Warcraft 1 and 2, which were about the orcs invading, then invading the orcs. They never really had the need of giving the clans much of an identity outside of flavour text for the lore books. Even then, only maybe...four clans really mattered to the WoW universe.Well yeah, but at least from my perspective, Rise of the Horde overrules any contradictions with the Alternate Timeline. The whole concept of an Alternate Timeline is too useful for preventing retcons for me to go ahead and accept any retcons.
Post by
Adamsm
Cho'gall was a 'rare'(natural birth twin head) up until the Second War when Gul'dan figured out how to use High Elf runestones to mutate regular ogres into the twin headed version. From there, I've always thought that it was the ogres themselves continuing the tradition of using sources of powerful magic to make more themselves.
Post by
oneforthemoney
To be fair to Blizzard here, the orcs individually never had too much lore behind them until now. This is their frantic effort to create a more cohesive and interesting narrative for them they didn't feel the need for back during Warcraft 1 and 2, which were about the orcs invading, then invading the orcs. They never really had the need of giving the clans much of an identity outside of flavour text for the lore books. Even then, only maybe...four clans really mattered to the WoW universe.Well yeah, but at least from my perspective, Rise of the Horde overrules any contradictions with the Alternate Timeline. The whole concept of an Alternate Timeline is too useful for preventing retcons for me to go ahead and accept any retcons.
Yeah, no question. I am not excusing Blizz's abuse of the retcon button here. Only trying to explain the logic behind the decision for the changes. It's still a horrible cop out. Particularly with so many changes that should not have been changed. This isn't the Flashpoint Paradox.
Post by
Rankkor
Nah, because on all of those short stories, the Ogres are still firmly in charge of their lives, whereas in the original timeline, they were subservient to the Gronn.
On Alternate!Draenor, the gronn are little more than semi-feral creatures who are barely capable of speech, and don't have any sort of civilization at all.
Also in Kargath's story, it wasn't just the Imperator who was smart, those ogres built a coliseum to fight gladiatorial games, and had a capital city and everything, instead of living on the primitive Ogre Mounds we know and hate.
Alternate!Draenor's Ogres were smart, well spoken, firmly in charge of their lives, with a slave caste, and a sprawling kingdom.
Original!Draenor's Ogres were slaves to the gronn, barely capable of speaking, let alone remembering things, lived in extremely primitive huts, wore nothing but loincloths and rags, and their main motivation to even join the Old Horde, was so that the old horde would help them be free of the Gronn.
So yeah, the backstory that Maraad is telling doesn't make sense.
I don't recall seeing any Gronn in them, though I could just be mistaken. Could it be that they simply weren't mentioned in Maraad's story and so were left out of its visualization as well? I don't see any reason why orgre warlords couldn't exist under the rule of Gronn thumb, they certainly still do in Outland, or why the ogres couldn't have bloodsport pits under Gronn thumb, they certainly still do in Outland (Ring of Blood and the one in Blade's Edge).
You make a good point about the capital, though I still don't think it's a stretch for the Gronn to have ordered them to build something similar. But that's just me and I try to reason retcons (even if I just flat out hate them).
On WoD the Gronn are not the masters of the Ogres, in fact, they're basically bullied by everyone. The Iron Horde, the Ogres, the horde and alliance, etc.
I like what I am seeing because we are finally seeing through the eyes of other orc clans and not just the Frostwolves, who as said multiple times, are not the norm.
How so? because they were reluctant to join the Old Horde, and refused to join the Iron Horde? several clans did that. They didn't get as much attention as the frostwolves, but that doesn't mean there weren't others. There were dozens of clans that refused to join in both timelines.
Really, the idea that the orcs were somehow peaceful before the demon corruption is a load of pull, considering what we know about the Warsong, Blackrocks and other clans...plus you know, that the yearly gathering has an enforced no weapons rule.
No its not. They were peaceful in the sense that they didn't attack without cause or reason. They weren't warmongers with a thirst of conquest. But they were aggressive, and when provoked to fight, they settled for nothing other than total extermination.
As contradictory as it may sound, it IS possible to be aggressive, and yet still be considered "peaceful". Just look at the klingons :P
To be fair to Blizzard here, the orcs individually never had too much lore behind them until now. This is their frantic effort to create a more cohesive and interesting narrative for them they didn't feel the need for back during Warcraft 1 and 2, which were about the orcs invading, then invading the orcs. They never really had the need of giving the clans much of an identity outside of flavour text for the lore books. Even then, only maybe...four clans really mattered to the WoW universe.
I can vouch for this. Clans didn't really had that much of an identity, other than really small flavor text, but in WoD, they have very different identities from the way they dress, to the way they decorate their homes, to their traditions, and weapons. On Draenor, when you see an orc, you almost always know what clan he or she is from at a glance.
Either way, admittedly and
very
regrettably I'm no expert on ogres, but I'm pretty sure there were ogre mages dating back to WC3, and mages are typically intelligent. Granted, they were probably in the minority, but they did exist.
They were the exception to the norm. Rarely there would be two-headed ogres, who would be smart enough to become mages, and these were few and far between. As adamsm said, Gul'dan figured out a way to artificially create ogre-magi, but even then, their number was small compared to their oafish brethren.
On WoD, ogres are smart enough to be mages without the need of having two heads. In fact, Two-headed Ogres in Draenor are so ULTRA intelligent as to be Archmages, which is what we see with the Ogre Imperator on Highmaul.
Post by
Adamsm
How so? because they were reluctant to join the Old Horde, and refused to join the Iron Horde? several clans did that. They didn't get as much attention as the frostwolves, but that doesn't mean there weren't others. There were dozens of clans that refused to join in both timelines.Again, A Warrior Made; the Blackrocks visit the Frostwolves and tell that if Draka had been born in any other clan she would have been drowned at birth for her 'weakness' because she was sickly. Draenor is a harsh world, and the Frostwolves were the odd clan out.
No its not. They were peaceful in the sense that they didn't attack without cause or reason. They weren't warmongers with a thirst of conquest. But they were aggressive, and when provoked to fight, they settled for nothing other than total extermination.
As contradictory as it may sound, it IS possible to be aggressive, and yet still be considered "peaceful". Just look at the klingons :PSorry Rank but it is a load; while they may not have made war(and honestly, we don't have enough history to tell if they did or not), they were still not a 'peaceful' race, anymore then humans are. But since they do have very precise clan boundaries, the clans do not want to mix normally, and again the whole no weapon thing at the yearly gathering says that are things we still do not know about.
Post by
matheus314
Bad one how? I like what I am seeing because we are finally seeing through the eyes of other orc clans and not just the Frostwolves, who as said multiple times, are not the norm. Really, the idea that the orcs were somehow peaceful before the demon corruption is a load of pull, considering what we know about the Warsong, Blackrocks and other clans...plus you know, that the yearly gathering has an enforced no weapons rule. It was said in Rise of the Horde that the Clans don't generally gather near each other because of the problems that nomad clans face; competition for food and supplies and all the rest. Seeing the Durotan's story was excellent since it may possibly give a reasoning for why the Wolves are like they are. I look forward to Blackhand's story because he's never been given a true back story.
I edited my comment exactly because it could lead to this misunderstanding of it. =P
The bad impression is not about the what the new lore is giving us. But
how
it is being given to us. They're ignoring the old-horde lore and trumping this one above it. With many flaws on what we already knew about them.
Is it better? Is it more detailed? Is it from a different point of view? Maybe yes, and that's all good. But neither of these matters if they are retconning what we thought to be cannon for so long. If it's
our
Maraad telling this story, then its bull@#$%. If it's Alternate!Maraad, then they
need
to make this really clear to anyone watching the series.
Post by
Rankkor
So..... even more plot holes from the Lords of War short stories, Durotan succumbs to the bloodlust (red eyes and all) due to getting too angry.
o_O what? the bloodlust only happened when orcs drank the demon blood. Orcs who haven't drink it, don't experience it. Garrosh lives perpetually angry, and he never experienced the bloodlust.
Also, Gan'ar is a huuuuuuuuuuuuge hypocrite, scolding durotan for his anger, when during the Frostfire Ridge zone,
all he does
is being angry.
****
spoiler alert
****
From the moment we go to FFR, the first thing he does, is channel leeroy jenkins and assault the ogre capital as revenge for his capture, with only half a dozen warriors as backup. Storming the capital of your enemy and taking it was not enough to quench his rage, so he then proceeded to go to the second capital of the Thunderlord Clan, and challenges the firstborn of their Warlord to a duel in single combat.
He kills him, grabs a rope, ties one end to the feet of the Warlord's son, ties the other end to his waist, and d
rags the corpse around their camp
goading the rest of the thunderlord (and the Warlord's two other sons) to fight him. He succeeds, essentially wiping out the line of the Iron Wolf, but not happy enough about that, he then storms their main Gronn Breeding grounds, and slays their alpha Gronn.
DAMN!!!!!
O_O
So yeah, he's not exactly the role model of self-control. We have to act as bodyguards for him through all of this to avoid him getting his dumb ass killed.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
cephadex
So..... even more plot holes from the Lords of War short stories, Durotan succumbs to the bloodlust (red eyes and all) due to getting too angry.
o_O what? the bloodlust only happened when orcs drank the demon blood. Orcs who haven't drink it, don't experience it. Garrosh lives perpetually angry, and he never experienced the bloodlust.
In WC3, shamans gave your tauren units bloodlust...
True about the bit with Gan'ar, but you have to admit that's pretty badass, with the corpse-dragging. But there was some bromance there too.
Also, about the "peaceful orcs" bit, what do you lot think about the fact that on the WoW character selection screen, under the orcs' description it says they "used to be a peaceful race"? (This isn't something new in WoD, it has always said that under the orcs' description.)
Post by
Adamsm
I blame Thrall :P
Post by
matheus314
****
spoiler alert
****
From the moment we go to FFR, the first thing he does, is channel leeroy jenkins and assault the ogre capital as revenge for his capture, with only half a dozen warriors as backup. Storming the capital of your enemy and taking it was not enough to quench his rage, so he then proceeded to go to the second capital of the Thunderlord Clan, and challenges the firstborn of their Warlord to a duel in single combat.
He kills him, grabs a rope, ties one end to the feet of the Warlord's son, ties the other end to his waist, and d
rags the corpse around their camp
goading the rest of the thunderlord (and the Warlord's two other sons) to fight him. He succeeds, essentially wiping out the line of the Iron Wolf, but not happy enough about that, he then storms their main Gronn Breeding grounds, and slays their alpha Gronn.
DAMN!
O_O
So yeah, he's not exactly the role model of self-control. We have to act as bodyguards for him through all of this to avoid him getting his dumb ass killed.
So glad I won't be doing this part of the quests... What a &*!@#$!
Also, from the legendary questline:
The Dragon's Tale
: Find Kairozdormu in the Time-Lost Glade.
Tarnished Bronze
: Defeat the Spirit of Kairozdormu as a tank, healer, or dps. This then completes
Chapter I: Call of the Archmage
.
So he's comming back to haunt us, and we have to kill him (for good?).
Post by
cephadex
We've covered that bit of the kairoz discussion, actually. That said, it makes me sad they're calling him t
arnished bronze
=(
Post by
Rankkor
****
spoiler alert
****
From the moment we go to FFR, the first thing he does, is channel leeroy jenkins and assault the ogre capital as revenge for his capture, with only half a dozen warriors as backup. Storming the capital of your enemy and taking it was not enough to quench his rage, so he then proceeded to go to the second capital of the Thunderlord Clan, and challenges the firstborn of their Warlord to a duel in single combat.
He kills him, grabs a rope, ties one end to the feet of the Warlord's son, ties the other end to his waist, and d
rags the corpse around their camp
goading the rest of the thunderlord (and the Warlord's two other sons) to fight him. He succeeds, essentially wiping out the line of the Iron Wolf, but not happy enough about that, he then storms their main Gronn Breeding grounds, and slays their alpha Gronn.
DAMN!
O_O
So yeah, he's not exactly the role model of self-control. We have to act as bodyguards for him through all of this to avoid him getting his dumb ass killed.
So glad I won't be doing this part of the quests... What a &*!@#$!
Ohhh hush you >_>
Your side is worse. At least the frostwolves are the good guys, but 50% of the Draenor draenei are traitors who serve the legion, including half of the exarchs, and a good chunk of the Auchenai. While we have to reign in a raging moron, you have to do a witch hunt to see who can and can't you trust between your own people.
pfft <_<
Post by
Adamsm
We've covered that bit of the kairoz discussion, actually. That said, it makes me sad they're calling him t
arnished bronze
=(
Well he is tarnished; he betrayed the Flight.
Post by
cephadex
He would tell you the bronze dragonflight was tarnished the moment they lost their powers.
Post by
Adamsm
Buuuuuut they still have their powers; they just don't have the omnisense of uberness anymore.
Post by
cephadex
But that's being tarnished too, definitely to him considering what he's willing to undergo in attempt to regain "their former glory" as he perceives it. I don't think he sees himself as being "less" or a bronze dragon for what he does, he probably sees himself as being "more." But it's difficult to argue this because as I already said, I don't like how he was written.
Post by
Rankkor
Buuuuuut they still have their powers; they just don't have the omnisense of uberness anymore.
Actually no they don't. They have some control of magic, as evidenced by their capacity to still go into humanoid forms, but the bronze no longer have any form of control over the timeways. Kairoz says so himself on the timeless isle introduction, how they needed the Vision of Time to even be able to see the future, let alone influence it.
Whatever control they had over the timeways its long gone.
Its also a possible motivation for Kairoz to do what he did, because the Infinite Dragonflight (being from a myriad of different timelines) still have their powers, and thus, still have the capacity to control/police the timeways in some form. Its possible he sees that excessive and tyranical control over the timelines is better than absolutely no control at all. Even if he's the one who's causing the disruptions in the first place.
I'm definitely gonna be doing the quests on the beta, to see if he has any insightful dialog when we confront his ghost. It kinda sucks that he died before we were able to see his motivations, or his plans.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.