This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.5
PTR
10.2.6
General Lore Discussions
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Stabhorn
Yeah we do, Nozdormu said that he, himself, had started it. And I think Kairoz saying
I will become infinite
means there's more to the story. That doesn't mean much, though, if he comes back we'd just have to kill him again, probably in some minor quest. But tbh, bliz doesn't like bringing back people we kill so many times, and seeing as the "killing Kairoz's spirit" quest would have been a lame extra kill if he would have come back after that, I suspect that really was the last time we'd have seen him. It might have just been a means of alerting players to the fact that he's dead and was evil, though, seeing as most players don't read the stories. But there would be more to the story, I could be remembering wrong but I think at the Caverns of Time I saw at least one named mob that used to be bronze that is now infinite.
Now that Kairoz is dead, what Murozond said is now true...but I still believe that Kairoz is the spark. Perhaps Nozdormu will examine Kairoz's actions and see them in a new light. I know Kairoz isn't the first, but he's the first we've seen that's supported the Infinite while still a bronze. Occulus' transformation into an Infinite was, at least to our point of view, instantaneous.
Post by
cephadex
Well it's clear Kairoz had started
something
, and the implication is that it isn't exactly the infinite dragonflight but possibly something derived from it. Maybe a bit like how the twilight dragonflight was derived from the black dragonflight.
It's noteworthy there's been no mention in War Crimes or WoD of Soridormi and the last vial of eternity which she had. The implication in the Vision in Time was that Kairoz had killed or knocked her out to obtain her vial to create the portal. At first I thought that might imply he didn't kill her, but even if he hadn't, you'd expect some reaction if the last vial was stolen.
Or maybe if Kairoz was Nozdormu he could have just easily replaced Soridormi's vial with a fake one while she was out, and the vision was just something that never ended up happening, like that one of Stormwind where everyone's dead. (
Or maybe Kairoz is Soridormi.... ooooh...
jk) On a serious note, I'm not still on about that theory, I would have liked a story about the infinite dragonflight presented in a way where the reader/player can empathize with them, and you start questioning whether they're really a bad thing.
Post by
Adamsm
With all due respect, that was bad/simplistic writing; he had to be set up as too proud for it to "feel right" for Garrosh to kill him. And of course he would openly praise the Infinite Dragonflight seeing as it's a "birth/background of a villain" story... no villain thinks they're being the bad guy... on the bright side, I think it's nice that he's not evil due to "evil because crazy" like Deathwing or Malygos (or Illidan or countless others), or "evil because why not all of a sudden" (like assorted members of the Hellscream family or Kael'thas).Honestly...he deserved it; we just spent an expansion underestimating Garrosh Hellscream, and then Kairoz decides that he is going to taunt him about conquering these orcs and making a new Dark Horde....how in the name of the Naaru did he not expect to get shanked. You see it at the end when Kairoz cannot believe that is dying; his arrogance was immense and he was showing it all through out War Crimes. Myself, I'm glad he's gone because I still find Garrosh to actually be the better villain then he is.
I would have liked a story about the infinite dragonflight presented in a way where the reader/player can empathize with them, and you start questioning whether they're really a bad thing.That already happens; look at two of the original three Infinite dungeons. Stopping the Dark Horde and stopping Arthas...it does become a point of why are you keeping History going, until you think on it and realize 'oh crap' without the Orcs Azeroth would fall to the might of the Legion.
As for the Infinites themselves; they are the reverse coin to the Bronzes. As long as there is one there will always be another. For all we know every single Infinite we've fought has been an alternate time line version of one of the Bronzes. To me, the Infinites are the Clockroaches of the Azeroth universe and they will always exist as they come from the End of Time and march backwards through the Time Stream.
Post by
cephadex
Honestly...he deserved it; we just spent an expansion underestimating Garrosh Hellscream, and then Kairoz decides that he is going to taunt him about conquering these orcs and making a new Dark Horde....how in the name of the Naaru did he not expect to get shanked. You see it at the end when Kairoz cannot believe that is dying; his arrogance was immense and he was showing it all through out War Crimes. Myself, I'm glad he's gone because I still find Garrosh to actually be the better villain then he is.
Whether or not he deserved it isn't really interesting to me, because I don't like the way he was written, and that was even more obvious when he was lording it over Garrosh so blatantly in the short story. Garrosh is a better example of that, in MoP he was written in a way that was alienating and practically impossible to relate to, so people saying they hate him is irrelevant. Of course they're going to hate him, he was written to be hated.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, think of the interactions we see with him; on the Timeless Isle he's got the insufferable know-it-all complex, in War Crimes he's an aloof silent mime that does nothing, and then we see his arrogance in ranting in front of the one orc who would slit his own throat then see the Orcs be made the pawn of some force.
I relate to Garrosh just fine; he was the absolute best part of War Crimes next to the Black Prince. I spent most of MoP hoping for a true redemption and actually being interested in Garrosh...so how he dies in Warlords makes me a 'little sad' to be completely honest.
I guess I just never had any interest in Kairoz; he struck me in the same mold as Illidan and you can ask anyone on the board how much I hate the Emo-King.
Post by
cephadex
Oh yeah, I forgot you hated Illidan, that's refreshing. But in regard to Garrosh, I think the way he's presented deliberately puts his ideas in a bad light, and when I thought about it, it occurred to me I actually agree with a lot of his ideas and they were the reason I liked the orcs in the first place. But for example, then they drag in stuff like
racial purity
and
forced pregnancy
, and even if audiences can digest that, clearly it was described that way with intent of leaving a bad taste in your mouth. For example, I could see his "racial purity" as something more along the lines of team spirit or pride in your culture. When I say stuff like "night elves suck," it feels more like team spirit to me than "racism."
Then you have these conspicuous shows of his guards acting like jerks to everyone's favorite characters like Gamon, and pretty much every NPC you team up with talking about how much Garrosh sucks. They wanted you to hate him. They could have shown his same ideals in a different light. At the risk of being flamed, though, Thrall has bugged me for quite some time.
I like the idea of Kairoz, maybe because I like that he's flawed and can't deal with the dragons losing their powers, and I like that he's selfish in a relatable way (okay, I just like him because he's hot - jk but not really). When Garrosh made the point that the orcs should be slaves to no one, I really loved him, because it's what I had thought in WC from the beginning (unfortunately they're still 'bad guys' in this expansion, just in a different way).
Post by
Adamsm
I blame Golden for all of those crimes....especially since some of it was idiotic; the forced pregnancy being the Proto-drakes but then because they felt like it, let's drag Alexstraza up /roll eyes All of the crimes were extreme stretches because Golden read something about the real war crimes of World War II and thought she could make them fit in the Warcraft universe...leaving aside that some of the racism was aimed at other races; that would be xenophobia since all of the races are different from one another.
Garrosh's ideas were good...sadly, they didn't write them well at all. That's honestly what I like the most about Warlords; we're going to see the actual Orcish ideals and thoughts that aren't strained through Thrall's upbringing as a non-Orc.
Thrall was good up until Cataclysm...and then well, Cataclysm happened and Twilight of the Aspects and Dragon Soul did not help in the least.
Post by
cephadex
I agree with basically everything you just said. Though this part -
That's honestly what I like the most about Warlords; we're going to see the actual Orcish ideals and thoughts that aren't strained through Thrall's upbringing as a non-Orc.
I don't know, I get the feeling we only get to see it in a positive light in the Frostwolf Clan, and while I'd be lying if I said I didn't really enjoy being part of the Frostwolf Clan, it still feels like they made Durotan a good guy because Thrall is a good guy (because he was raised by humans). That is, while obviously Durotan wasn't raised by humans, it feels like they made him and his clan 'good' because we identify with Thrall as being 'good.'
I would have so, so loved to have been part of the Warsong Clan in this expansion.
Post by
Adamsm
The Lords of War mini-toons are helping to show more of the older orc ideals. I know we'll see a lot of Frostwolves...but after Durotan's mini, I don't think they'll be the same: After all, the rest of the clan was willing to abandon Durotan's mother, and as seen in Draka's story, the Wolves were willing to try to raise up the 'weak' rather then put them down like the other clans did.
I really can't wait for Blackhand's episode though...that is going to be an epic one.
Post by
cephadex
The Lords of War mini-toons are helping to show more of the older orc ideals. I know we'll see a lot of Frostwolves...but after Durotan's mini, I don't think they'll be the same: After all, the rest of the clan was willing to abandon Durotan's mother, and as seen in Draka's story, the Wolves were willing to try to raise up the 'weak' rather then put them down like the other clans did.
I really can't wait for Blackhand's episode though...that is going to be an epic one.
That's actually a good point, I like that they have these episodes, because most people don't know the different stories behind the different clans and clan heads and it helps to relate to the expansion. But it's true that it also finally shows things from an orcish perspective, and not one where orcs are these invaders from somewhere else or just bad guys who destroy everything for no reason.
Post by
matheus314
The Lords of War mini-toons are helping to show more of the older orc ideals. I know we'll see a lot of Frostwolves...but after Durotan's mini, I don't think they'll be the same: After all, the rest of the clan was willing to abandon Durotan's mother, and as seen in Draka's story, the Wolves were willing to try to raise up the 'weak' rather then put them down like the other clans did.
I really can't wait for Blackhand's episode though...that is going to be an epic one.
That's actually a good point, I like that they have these episodes, because most people don't know the different stories behind the different clans and clan heads and it helps to relate to the expansion. But it's true that it also finally shows things from an orcish perspective, and not one where orcs are these invaders from somewhere else or just bad guys who destroy everything for no reason.
You know what most people don't know either? That these stories are from
alternate
Draenor. And they're taking these as cannon for the old horde.
Now, I know most of these people don't really care about the lore and won't be affected by it. But the overall impression that they'll leave is a bad one.
EDIT: "Bad one", lorewise, I meant.
Post by
bromil
no villain thinks they're being the bad guy...
You've obviously never met Gul'dan...
You know what most people don't know either? That these stories are from
alternate
Draenor. And they're taking these as cannon for the old horde.
Blizzard have said
they *are* canon for the Old Horde. The backstories that Maraad is relating apply to both Draenors.
Post by
Rankkor
You know what most people don't know either? That these stories are from
alternate
Draenor. And they're taking these as cannon for the old horde.
Blizzard have said
they *are* canon for the Old Horde. The backstories that Maraad is relating apply to both Draenors.
Which doesn't make one lick of sense.
Bladefist's story has him as a gladiator for a thriving ogre empire, full of smart, and conniving ogres.
But on the original Draenor that the Old Horde comes from, the ogres were always dumb brutes subjugated under the iron grip of the Gronn.
Even as far as Durotan and Doomhammer being children, Ogres were nothing but lumbering oafs, incapable of speaking in correct english, let alone possess the magnificent empire they have in alternate draenor.
This applies too for Grom, who's backstory involves a very articulate and well spoken Ogre, when on the original draenor, they were nothing but dumb idiots.
Huge plot hole there.
Post by
Morec0
You know what most people don't know either? That these stories are from
alternate
Draenor. And they're taking these as cannon for the old horde.
Blizzard have said
they *are* canon for the Old Horde. The backstories that Maraad is relating apply to both Draenors.
Which doesn't make one lick of sense.
Bladefist's story has him as a gladiator for a thriving ogre empire, full of smart, and conniving ogres.
But on the original Draenor that the Old Horde comes from, the ogres were always dumb brutes subjugated under the iron grip of the Gronn.
Even as far as Durotan and Doomhammer being children, Ogres were nothing but lumbering oafs, incapable of speaking in correct english, let alone possess the magnificent empire they have in alternate draenor.
This applies too for Grom, who's backstory involves a very articulate and well spoken Ogre, when on the original draenor, they were nothing but dumb idiots.
Huge plot hole there.
Perhaps those two ogres who were at the head of things were rarities? Black sheep in the ogre - similar to Cho'gal only without two heads. After all, you don't have to be smart to enjoy bloodsport, and really you don't have to be all that smart to get brutes organized into some kind of fighting force - you just have to be the top dog amongst them.
But I'm probably trying to justify madness here.
Post by
Rankkor
Nah, because on all of those short stories, the Ogres are still firmly in charge of their lives, whereas in the original timeline, they were subservient to the Gronn.
On Alternate!Draenor, the gronn are little more than semi-feral creatures who are barely capable of speech, and don't have any sort of civilization at all.
Also in Kargath's story, it wasn't just the Imperator who was smart, those ogres built a coliseum to fight gladiatorial games, and had a capital city and everything, instead of living on the primitive Ogre Mounds we know and hate.
Alternate!Draenor's Ogres were smart, well spoken, firmly in charge of their lives, with a slave caste, and a sprawling kingdom.
Original!Draenor's Ogres were slaves to the gronn, barely capable of speaking, let alone remembering things, lived in extremely primitive huts, wore nothing but loincloths and rags, and their main motivation to even join the Old Horde, was so that the old horde would help them be free of the Gronn.
So yeah, the backstory that Maraad is telling doesn't make sense.
Post by
Morec0
Nah, because on all of those short stories, the Ogres are still firmly in charge of their lives, whereas in the original timeline, they were subservient to the Gronn.
On Alternate!Draenor, the gronn are little more than semi-feral creatures who are barely capable of speech, and don't have any sort of civilization at all.
Also in Kargath's story, it wasn't just the Imperator who was smart, those ogres built a coliseum to fight gladiatorial games, and had a capital city and everything, instead of living on the primitive Ogre Mounds we know and hate.
Alternate!Draenor's Ogres were smart, well spoken, firmly in charge of their lives, with a slave caste, and a sprawling kingdom.
Original!Draenor's Ogres were slaves to the gronn, barely capable of speaking, let alone remembering things, lived in extremely primitive huts, wore nothing but loincloths and rags, and their main motivation to even join the Old Horde, was so that the old horde would help them be free of the Gronn.
So yeah, the backstory that Maraad is telling doesn't make sense.
I don't recall seeing any Gronn in them, though I could just be mistaken. Could it be that they simply weren't mentioned in Maraad's story and so were left out of its visualization as well? I don't see any reason why orgre warlords couldn't exist under the rule of Gronn thumb, they certainly still do in Outland, or why the ogres couldn't have bloodsport pits under Gronn thumb, they certainly still do in Outland (Ring of Blood and the one in Blade's Edge).
You make a good point about the capital, though I still don't think it's a stretch for the Gronn to have ordered them to build something similar. But that's just me and I try to reason retcons (even if I just flat out hate them).
Post by
Adamsm
The Lords of War mini-toons are helping to show more of the older orc ideals. I know we'll see a lot of Frostwolves...but after Durotan's mini, I don't think they'll be the same: After all, the rest of the clan was willing to abandon Durotan's mother, and as seen in Draka's story, the Wolves were willing to try to raise up the 'weak' rather then put them down like the other clans did.
I really can't wait for Blackhand's episode though...that is going to be an epic one.
That's actually a good point, I like that they have these episodes, because most people don't know the different stories behind the different clans and clan heads and it helps to relate to the expansion. But it's true that it also finally shows things from an orcish perspective, and not one where orcs are these invaders from somewhere else or just bad guys who destroy everything for no reason.
You know what most people don't know either? That these stories are from
alternate
Draenor. And they're taking these as cannon for the old horde.
Now, I know most of these people don't really care about the lore and won't be affected by it. But the overall impression that they'll leave is a bad one.
EDIT: "Bad one", lorewise, I meant.
Bad one how? I like what I am seeing because we are finally seeing through the eyes of other orc clans and not just the Frostwolves, who as said multiple times, are not the norm. Really, the idea that the orcs were somehow peaceful before the demon corruption is a load of pull, considering what we know about the Warsong, Blackrocks and other clans...plus you know, that the yearly gathering has an enforced no weapons rule. It was said in Rise of the Horde that the Clans don't generally gather near each other because of the problems that nomad clans face; competition for food and supplies and all the rest. Seeing the Durotan's story was excellent since it may possibly give a reasoning for why the Wolves are like they are. I look forward to Blackhand's story because he's never been given a true back story.
Post by
Skreeran
If Blizzard says the Lords of War stories are canon, then Blizzard is wrong, because there is no Gan'ar in our timeline, and Geyah had no quarrel with Durotan. Also, Grom's mate died, but he has no little baby Garrosh that he's raising. Seems like Garrosh wasn't born in this timeline.
Posting this from my new Chromebook that I got for my birthday. :)
Post by
Adamsm
I think the Lords stories are meant to be a combo; the actual story that Maraad knows mixed in with the Alternate world. We know that Ogres/Gronns took slaves, so the idea of the Bladefist clan starting off as gladiators can make sense....just the Ogre's who did it weren't as big and bad as they are in Alternate Draenor.
Post by
Skreeran
Sure, that would work. But the LoW series is most definitely not 100% canon.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.