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Post by
Morec0
I really hope they get Gul'dan's custom model done soon.
And I really hope we get to kick his ass so hard his face becomes ass and his ass becomes face.
Based on the concept art, I think that's already the case
Post by
matheus314
As for the Orcs; it's an Alternate World: These are not the Heroes of the Horde. They look like them, but it's not them.
I really can't stress enough about that. The original Horde heroes are dead, and nothing will bring them back. These guys are not the same orcs that we've seen on the old Horde, they have the same looks, but experienced a way different life. It is not only the garrosh meddling with them that changed them, this alternate Draenor already had a different story than the Draenor we knew on Rise of the Horde when Garrosh gets there to form his Iron Horde.
Post by
Adamsm
As for the Orcs; it's an Alternate World: These are not the Heroes of the Horde. They look like them, but it's not them.
I really can't stress enough about that. The original Horde heroes are dead, and nothing will bring them back. These guys are not the same orcs that we've seen on the old Horde, they have the same looks, but experienced a way different life. It is not only the garrosh meddling with them that changed them, this alternate Draenor already had a different story than the Draenor we knew on Rise of the Horde when Garrosh gets there to form his Iron Horde.
Well not that much of a different story; only from where they would have drank the Blood on; up to that point it would still be the same...but then again, Grom wasn't a hero to the Horde till two decades later when he taught Thrall and then gave his life. Blackhand was never a Horde hero. Ner'zhul wasn't a hero; he was a grand betrayer. And Gul'dan well...
Bladefist, Elder Deadeye and the others were 'monsters' who had attacked and wiped out one race and attempted to do it again on Azeroth. Doomhammer is a hero of the Horde but we haven't seen anything with him yet.
So saying that you are killing the Heroes of the Horde is a big much; we're still killing the same 'monsters' of the Dark Horde with just a different moniker.
Post by
matheus314
Well not that much of a different story; only from where they would have drank the Blood on; up to that point it would still be the same...but then again, Grom wasn't a hero to the Horde till two decades later when he taught Thrall and then gave his life. Blackhand was never a Horde hero. Ner'zhul wasn't a hero; he was a grand betrayer. And Gul'dan well...
Bladefist, Elder Deadeye and the others were 'monsters' who had attacked and wiped out one race and attempted to do it again on Azeroth. Doomhammer is a hero of the Horde but we haven't seen anything with him yet.
So saying that you are killing the Heroes of the Horde is a big much; we're still killing the same 'monsters' of the Dark Horde with just a different moniker.
You know that Rulka is alive on this Alternate!Draenor, right? In our original timeline, her death happened way before the suposed time that Garrosh starts changing the alternate timeline. So her being alive may point that Garrosh convincing the clans to not drink the blood of Mannoroth wasn't the only different thing that happened on that timeline... Maybe they'd never drink the blood at all. Maybe they won't even meddle with the Legion, since on SMV you discover that Ner'zhul got his shadow powers from a void state Naaru, not from demons.
Post by
Adamsm
As Gul'dan and the Stormreavers are green, they knew about the Legion itself. But we'll have to wait and see; honestly though, I'm betting there isn't going to be that much difference between the early years of the Draenor War and AlternateDraenor.
Post by
Morec0
Okay, MASSIVE slowpoke moment incoming:
I got back to thinking about my WoW days just a little while ago, and the first thing that came to mind was the Silverpine questline. And then it dawned on me: the conclusion it had is the perfect example of why Sylvanas may never become as bad as the Lich King.
She had Lorna Crowley in her grasp, the ultimate trump card to make Darius do whatever she wanted him to under the threat of turning his daughter into a Forsaken, but after ordering Darius to pull his troops back she returns Lorna to him.
To me, this scene hearkens back to another one that Sylvanas herself also appeared in: that being when Arthas killed and resurrected her after she was defeated by his Scourge forces. Only, in this situation, Sylvanas lets Lorna - the stand-in for herself - live.
It's quite possible I'm dead-wrong, but it almost seems to me that despite aligning with the Val'kyr, despite resurrecting thousands of Gilneans up into undeath, despite everything that drives her towards being the "Lich Queen" Sylvanas is able to see the line. She knows where the line is between her and Arthas, and I think every time she approaches that line she will pull back.
Post by
oneforthemoney
No. She forked Lorna over because if Sylvanas killed her then, using her as a hostage and threat would have been utterly pointless. And Sylvanas was not leaving that spot without doing something with her. If she didn't hand her over, the worgen would attack, the bloodpack if not Darius himself.
Post by
matheus314
Maybe because the Lich King had this thing mind-controlling him, so he was unable to make concessions over taking it either in brute force or simply killing the enemy and raising it back as your ally.
Both things Sylvanas cannot do because of the fear of becomming equal to the Lich King, something she really does not want to be... now.
That said, I can totally see her in the future being as evil as the LK, but not equal as it, technically speaking.
Post by
Stabhorn
Maybe because the Lich King had this thing mind-controlling him, so he was unable to make concessions over taking it either in brute force or simply killing the enemy and raising it back as your ally.
The Lich King doesn't have anything controlling him.
Post by
matheus314
Maybe because the Lich King had this thing mind-controlling him, so he was unable to make concessions over taking it either in brute force or simply killing the enemy and raising it back as your ally.
The Lich King doesn't have anything controlling him.
I meant "Arthas as the Lich King".
Post by
Adamsm
No. She forked Lorna over because if Sylvanas killed her then, using her as a hostage and threat would have been utterly pointless. And Sylvanas was not leaving that spot without doing something with her. If she didn't hand her over, the worgen would attack, the bloodpack if not Darius himself.
This; had she killed Lorna, Darius would have leapt down her throat, tearing her limb from limb as the Bloodhowl and Gilneas packs slammed into the Forsaken machine from every side..which would mean that the rest of the quests would have made no sense she wouldn't have had an army to pull it off. But because she played the game, she got Darius and the Gilnean natives to surrender and withdraw, leaving Bloodfang and his pack alone against the Forsaken machine.
Post by
morginar
Wasn't the forsaken winning? And the Worgen wanted to the last man standing.
But sylvanas captured the Lorna to shoo the dogs away. Saving their lives and got a legit claim on Gilneas.
How mercyfull.
Post by
Adamsm
Wasn't the forsaken winning? And the Worgen wanted to the last man standing.
But sylvanas captured the Lorna to shoo the dogs away. Saving their lives and got a legit claim on Gilneas.
How mercyfull.
The Worgen were going to fight to kill the slayer of their Prince; it was stalemate on the border. Had Sylvanas killed the Lorna it would have been a case of fighting to the last wolf-man...but because she was able to manipulate it, Bloodfang lost his back up. Also, considering how hard the Worgen were hitting the Forsaken(killed their commanders) and they actually had to recruit Crowly and his cronies for assistance and inside knowledge on the new wolf threat...and we all know how that ended.
Post by
Morec0
Here's food for thought:
If Kil'jaeden is the Deciever, and Archimonde is the Deflier, what might an Eredar Velen have become?
Post by
Rankkor
Here's food for thought:
If Kil'jaeden is the Deciever, and Archimonde is the Deflier, what might an Eredar Velen have become?
The corrupter?
Post by
matheus314
Here's food for thought:
If Kil'jaeden is the Deciever, and Archimonde is the Defiler, what might an Eredar Velen have become?
The corrupter?
I'd guess something starting with "D", to keep the pattern... ;D
The Doomcaller?
Post by
Rankkor
No. She forked Lorna over because if Sylvanas killed her then, using her as a hostage and threat would have been utterly pointless. And Sylvanas was not leaving that spot without doing something with her. If she didn't hand her over, the worgen would attack, the bloodpack if not Darius himself.
And what if they did?
She had demanded their surrender, and they accepted first, laying down their weapons. At that point the worgen were fighting a losing battle, since their mage reinforcements had been turned over by the enemy, their dwarf reinforcements were decimated, their SI:7 backup were also scorched down, their backup from hillsbrad were annihilated, and they were facing the combined might of the orc corsairs, the forsaken war machine, and the newly resurrected ambermill mages.
This; had she killed Lorna, Darius would have leapt down her throat, tearing her limb from limb
Right, because sylvannas is completely helpless. Its not like we didn't saw her oneshotting worgen left and right like fleas a few quests before that point. Its not like we didn't see her jumping from doomguard to doomguard beheading them with her blades in the battle for undercity. Nope, she's a helpless waif that can't do squat in combat.
as the Bloodhowl and Gilneas packs slammed into the Forsaken machine from every side..
Only to be crushed beneath it.
Remember, ALL of their reinforcements had been gone at that point. Mages? gone. Dwarfs? gone. SI:7? gone. Hillsbrad worgens? almost gone. And they did surrendered first, meaning they laid down their weapons.
which would mean that the rest of the quests would have made no sense she wouldn't have had an army to pull it off.
lol what? what about the orc corsairs? the newly turned ambermill mages? and you know...... her entire forsaken army? were those magically gonna go poof if she killed lorna?
Come on man, she was fighting a winning battle, and while her decision to use lorna was out of pragmatism (she used her to finish the battle quicker and reduce the casualties on her forces) her decision to honor her deal was a genuine act of mercy. She could had gone all evil overlord and kill the girl in front of her dad, which of course would had enraged him to hell and back, but remember, at that point it was Ivar and Darius vs Sylvannas, Crommush, Three Valks, and Sylvannas number one agent (AKA The player).
Not to mention that she could had brought with her more backup if she didn't intended to keep her end of the bargain, like a mage or two to port her away after killing lorna.
She could had also acted all cold and uncaring about her forces and simply win the good ol' fashioned way by crushing the worgens, suffering heavy losses on her side, and simply shrugging them off with a "we'll get more later with my valks" Since I remind you once more, she was already winning the battle when she made the offer to end it in a more peaceful way, rather than a last-man standing.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Rankorr, again, the Hillsbrad questline canonically takes place after Silverpine. So no, none of that is right, particularly the assumption Sylvanas's victory was assured. The Forsaken were fighting a war with momentum, and they'd lost it and were being beaten black and blue right out of Gilneas. This was an act of desperation, not mercy, since if she showed no qualm about turning her own sister into an undead, I sincerely doubt she'd give a damn about Darius's daughter.
As for her troops, no, that's wrong too. She'd lost her easy supply when all of a sudden she found herself fighting worgen, not humans like she expected. The valk tactic was turned around on her and she couldn't use troops like the scourge would anymore.
The net result of her little negotiation was to get Darius to pull back. She kills Lorna and guess what? She'll have accomplished nothing! Lorna's dead. Now? Now she'll have Darius on the warpath with his whole army. Backstab the negotiations and kill Darius? Whoops! His troops are still there, and now they're really mad and under Ivar, who does not negotiate. So no, this wasn't an act of mercy. It was a strategic move, nothing else. It's stupid painting what Sylvanas did as an act of mercy when it was threatening to kill a man's daughter, and then raise her into an existence worse than death, and only letting her go on the condition her father stops trying to prevent you from enacting genocide on his country.
Post by
Rankkor
Rankorr, again, the Hillsbrad questline canonically takes place after Silverpine.
Source? I'm not talking about the campaign to exterminate the bloodpack out of hillsbrad. I'm talking about the quest in silverpine where we bombard the crap out of the hillsbrad refugees in Fenris Isle that turned worgen.
Here
and
Here
.
So no, none of that is right, particularly the assumption Sylvanas's victory was assured. The Forsaken were fighting a war with momentum, and they'd lost it and were being beaten black and blue right out of Gilneas.
This was at the start of the Silverpine questline. The forsaken were indeed pushed out of gilneas, and the GLF pushed as far as the northern reach of silverpine. Guess what? the forsaken pushed back. By the time the last quest in silverpine rolls out, the alliance forces in the area were completely and utterly crushed. The entire dwarven regiment? gone. The entire SI:7 assassin regiment? gone. The mages from Ambermill? not just gone, converted to the forsaken side. Reinforcements from Fenris Isle? Mostly gone.
This was an act of desperation, not mercy, since if she showed no qualm about turning her own sister into an undead, I sincerely doubt she'd give a damn about Darius's daughter.
Not the same. Her reasons for wanting to turn vereesa into a forsaken were quite different. She wasn't looking for a lackey, she was looking for a companion to rule beside her.
As for her troops, no, that's wrong too. She'd lost her easy supply when all of a sudden she found herself fighting worgen, not humans like she expected.
Doesn't matter, all those non-human troops were decimated (Again, all the dwarves, assassins, and Hillsbrad Refugees turned worgen were decimated).
The valk tactic was turned around on her and she couldn't use troops like the scourge would anymore.
Wrong
and
Wrong
.
Two words:
Ambermill Mages.
Three Words:
Fenris Isle Refugees.
The net result of her little negotiation was to get Darius to pull back. She kills Lorna and guess what? She'll have accomplished nothing! Lorna's dead. Now? Now she'll have Darius on the warpath with his whole army.
Lol, what army? the tattered remains of the GLF? the same GLF that was already crushed on the northern half of Silverpine? The Dwarven regiment that was already crushed? the assassins in Pyrewood that she burned? The mages in ambermill that she already turned? The refugees in Fenris Isle that were bombed to hell?
Some army.
By the time the last quest in silverpine rolls out, the only "army" the alliance has in silverpine is the bloodpack, and some pockets of GLF forces. She got the latter to surrender, and as shown in Hillsbrad, the former weren't that particularly effective given that they're mostly feral.
Backstab the negotiations and kill Darius? Whoops! His troops are still there
Again, what troops? the entire force of the alliance
IN SILVERPINE
were decimated (yes, they had more forces in Gilneas, but that's another front)
It's stupid painting what Sylvanas did as an act of mercy when it was threatening to kill a man's daughter, and then raise her into an existence worse than death
The threat wasn't the act of mercy, I do believe her more than capable of turning Lorna if Crowley hadn't surrendered. The act of mercy was honoring her end of the bargain once she had her victory secured. Again, the alliance troops surrendered, and laid down their arms. And they were already losing by the time they put them down. Had she killed Lorna, or just flat out refuse to bargain with the worgen in the first place, she would had still won.
and only letting her go on the condition her father stops trying to prevent you from enacting genocide on his country.
Lol, that wasn't the deal she made. The deal she made was that the worgen surrendered, and left silverpine. That's it. They still fight the forsaken in gilneas, that's what the entire battleground "Battle for Gilneas" is about.
Once the alliance war machine was crushed in silverpine, the forsaken pushed back into the peninsula, and engaged the GLF and the 7th Legion there. (The Bloodpack refused to fight for gilneas and proceeded to do guerrilla warfare in Hillsbrad)
Post by
Adamsm
Right, because sylvannas is completely helpless. Its not like we didn't saw her oneshotting worgen left and right like fleas a few quests before that point. Its not like we didn't see her jumping from doomguard to doomguard beheading them with her blades in the battle for undercity. Nope, she's a helpless waif that can't do squat in combat.Not my point; my point is she would have killed a daughter in front of her father, a father we've already seen beat the @#$% out of feral worgen with his bare hands...add the Worgen curse to it, and you'd have a very dangerous thing coming full tilt at an Undead who prefers to hit from range.
Also, she's 'strong' true, but all it takes is on lucky shot and she's as dead as anyone else(Godfrey shooting her in the back of the head anyone?).
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