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Post by
Rankkor
sylvanas herself was relieved that vereesa had made that call on her own because she had no desire to kill her own nephews.Which, considering Sylvanas personality...makes even less sense and continues to add to the manure pile for this suggestion.
Edit: In other words, she's fine with dooming her sister to a life of undeath but draws the line at killing children...which doesn't fit with the Forsaken tactics we've seen for their assaults.
not quite. In her warped perspective, she's doing her sister a favor by turning her into undeath (Partly so she stops feeling grief over her husband, and cutting off her ties with the living, which have caused her nothing but pain and misery)
But there's no value tactically or not to turn children to undeath. They'd be stuck in frail and weak frames forever, stunted, stuck in a frail form, unable to render service to the forsaken. Its a waste. She'd probably want to wait until they're adults and able-bodied before turning them. Doing so when they're less than 10 years old would had been a waste.
Post by
Adamsm
Still makes absolutely no sense...and it doesn't make any sense at all for Vereesa to abandon her children. Like I said, I have a feeling it's going to be mostly crap that the guy reported. If it's not, then it does mean that whatever out lines Blizzard are giving to Golden are bad on purpose; like I've said, Shadow of the Horde was a great book as was Dawn of the Aspects.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Helps to have some logic and not just completely destroy more characters for no real reason; was already inferred that she will not leave her children behind in Tides of War and now this? Makes even less sense then the previous book.
Edit: Since as seen in Night of the Dragon, Vereesa is a mama bear you don't want to @#$% with; ask her cousin about that...oh wait, no you can't, since she made certain that he was killed by Sinestra.
Emotion does play a part, but deciding that the children should lose their mother for possible revenge. And that's still leaving out the Sylvanas thing, which is out of character for the woman who had already sent her Forsaken into other lands to attack civilian targets(invasion of GIlneas?) since I doubt she told her men 'okay, kill the men and women, but don't touch the kids!'.
Post by
Rankkor
Still makes absolutely no sense...
and it doesn't make any sense at all for Vereesa to abandon her children.
And...... she didn't. She had a moment of emotional weakness, and then she recapacitated, and snapped out of it, swearing to never consider leaving her kids again.
She confides to her sister that although she's been putting up the image of the tough chick in front of everyone, on the inside, she's been a sobbing wreck ever since Rhonin died, and has basically isolated herself from everyone, her children included. She had barely seen them in the past year, constantly looking for excuses to be deployed, and pushing back everyone else. Sylvanas was the first person she truly, really broke down with, and it made her temporarily do something crazy. Is that really so out of place to you?
Helps to have some logic and not just completely destroy more characters for no real reason;
Emotion overrides reason dude. Some of the worst calls we make in our lives are usually made during an emotional moment. This is why most people usually advice to never ever make a decision while angered, upset, or otherwise worked up.
Since as seen in Night of the Dragon, Vereesa is a mama bear you don't want to @#$% with; ask her cousin about that...oh wait, no you can't, since she made certain that he was killed by Sinestra.
She also snapped at said cousin when he called Sylvanas a banshee, because despite everything that's happened, she still loves her sister, and sees her as family. To the point that during this subplot she felt closer to her sister than her own kids. In the letter she sends to sylvanas, she was remorseful of leaving her sister behind, but stated that her children needed her more and apologized to her. (So much for the theory of the other 2 living windrunners wanting to shoot on sight the undead one)
And that's still leaving out the Sylvanas thing, which is out of character for the woman who had already sent her Forsaken into other lands to attack civilian targets(invasion of GIlneas?) since I doubt she told her men 'okay, kill the men and women, but don't touch the kids!'.
She attacked civilian targets, but never raised children. Have you SEEN any undead kids? Think about it man, what makes more sense from a tactical point of view for you? Kill the adults, and raise them as forsaken, and kill the children, to have completely weak and useless forsaken. Or, kill the adults and raise them, keep the children as slaves until they grow up and THEN kill them and have double the dose of useful forsaken?
Come on man.
Emotion does play a part, but deciding that the children should lose their mother for possible revenge.
She wasn't leaving them due to revenge. She could had easily assassinate garrosh, and then stay with the alliance. Her brief contemplation of leaving had nothing to do with the assassination attempt. She contemplated leaving because she felt HUGE doses of survivor's guilt. This guilt led her to believe she sucked as a mother, and her kids would probably be better off without her, since they barely see her anymore anyways, and at the same time, briefly believed that staying with her sister would make the two of them happy. Like I said, the way it was described, that brief moment when Sylvanas opened up, and let the ice crack and addmitted how lonely and empty she felt, Vereesa truly wanted to make her sister happy.
But all of this was simply due to a moment of emotional vulnerability, and once she was just about to take the first step, she retracted.
Frankly, that subplot would had made a GREAT tale if it had actually led anywhere, but nope, that plotline went nowhere. Which I suspected from the start because all of the plotlines related to sylvanas go nowhere and cleanly resolve themselves so that she can go back to her evil scheming mode that Blizzard always keeps her in.
NOT.COOL.BLIZZARD!.
Post by
Rankkor
Anyways, here's some more spoilers
Thrall's son is named Durak. Aggra, is also pregnant with a second child. Lovely
Here is a small excerpt from the speech sylvanas gives vereesa to convince her to join her:
"Come and rule by my side. You hate the Horde - and so did I, until I had a place of power there. We can be our own law, Little Moon. We can reshape the Horde in our image. Nothing could stop us. We will grind our enemies into dust and elevate our allies. I feel this; I think you can feel it too. I want you with me, Sister. I have been... so very lonely. I did not even realize it until now. I did not think I could.........stay with me. Please... stay, my Little Moon."
And here is the speech of garrosh before his verdict. Now this part is what makes me think this whole thing is legit. Regardless of what I think of the book, or what I think of the speech (which basically makes Garrosh a mustache-twirling villain) this doesn't sound to me like something an amateur would write.
"Garrosh Hellscream," said Taran Zhu. "You have been tried in a formal court of Pandaran law. Before the jury begins its deliberation on your fate, is there anything you wish to say, to me, to the jury, or any spectators?"
"Yes," he said. "I do have something to say. Honorable Taran Zhu. August Celestials. Spectators from all across Azeroth. I have heard everything you have heard. I have seen what you have seen. Tyrande Whisperwind has presented a strong and damning case against me. A case that has roused some of you to anger, and thoughts of revenge. Thoughts of my death. I do not blame you for hungering for that. Baine Bloodhoof, who has little enough cause to do so, has with great earnestness represented a case not protesting my innocence, but asking for your understanding. For your compassion. For you, the jury and the spectators, to look within your own hearts, and see that no one is completely free from blame. And Prince Anduin, who by all rights should be foremost among those clamoring for my death, has chosen to spend hours in my company. I attempted to slay him, in a brutal, cruel, and painful manner. And what does he do? He speaks to me of the Light. He tells me he believes that I can change. He has shown me kindness when I offered hatred and violence. It is because of him that I stand before you, facing what I expect to be a pronouncement of my death, as a warrior, not as a broken slave. Oh, yes. I know full well how much blood is on my hands. I know exactly that magnitude and the consequences of what I have done. And now, here at this moment, when I am free to speak my mind and heart, I tell you true: I regret..... Nothing!"
"Yes! Yes! I would destroy a thousand more Theramores, if it would bring the Alliance to its knees! I would hunt down every night elf whelp that bleats on the face of this world and silence their mewling forever! I would banish every troll, every tauren, every simpering blood elf and greedy goblin and shambling waling corpse if it were within my power - and it almost was! The only atrocities I regret are the ones I did not perform! The only thing that preys on me is that I stopped before I could see the true Horde live again! Nothing - nothing in this world can stop me!"
BTW at this point, I'm surprised there's not a MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA tossed in there along with the dramatic thunder and cape swirl.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Dammit Garrosh. No. No. Stop being a stereotype. Just stop.
Post by
Stabhorn
So...maybe Wrathion joined with the Infinite Dragonflight to...save uncorrupted black dragons? Maybe?
If Wrathion is the final boss of this expansion...my fury will know no bounds.
Post by
Adamsm
So...maybe Wrathion joined with the Infinite Dragonflight to...save uncorrupted black dragons? Maybe?
If Wrathion is the final boss of this expansion...my fury will know no bounds.
Blizzard already said that Wrath is not going to be in the next expansion though.
Edit: Also, that speech to Vereesa....dear god that is cheesy. I hope to hell it's not true, because that is just more horrible writing. And there is ghost child in game Rank; there was also a ghost child who helped Arthas in Rise of the Lich King. Also, I somehow doubt that the Valk's care; they'd probably raise whoever is there.
Rather then seem like character growth...it all seems like character derailment for Sylvanas. After what was stated in the Leader Story and then what we saw Cata, to suddenly turn around like this seems dumb to me....and again, the whole 'turn my sister into an undead so she can be like me' seems really idiotic.
Post by
Rankkor
Blizzard already said that Wrath is not going to be in the next expansion though.
Actually, they said his role on the next expansion would be minimal, a cameo at best. Not that he wont show up.
Edit: Also, that speech to Vereesa....dear god that is cheesy. I hope to hell it's not true, because that is just more horrible writing.
hey I liked it =/
And there is
ghost
child in game Rank; there was also a
ghost
child who helped Arthas in Rise of the Lich King.
Highlighted the key words. GHOSTS. And neither of those children was slain by the forsaken. The scourge wanted to completely purge the world of the living. The forsaken are more pragmatic on their approach, they want numbers, useful members, and undead children have no tactical value. Again, have you
seen
FORSAKEN children? Because the ghost of arthas, and the ghost of pamela don't count.
Also, I somehow doubt that the Valk's care; they'd probably raise whoever is there.
Nope. Valks are disciplined to a fault, who obey orders to the letter as if written in blood. They're not mavericks that need to be kept in check.
Rather then seem like character growth...it all seems like character derailment for Sylvanas.
Why? because it doesn't fit your narrative? I told you she loves her sisters. And probably nobody else.
After what was stated in the Leader Story and then what we saw Cata, to suddenly turn around like this seems dumb to me....
I don't remember the Leader Story saying that she hates her sisters.
and again, the whole 'turn my sister into an undead so she can be like me' seems really idiotic.
The whole thing was a spur of the moment thing, for the both of them. Its not like Sylvanas had been planning this for decades, it was vereesa who called sylvanas in the first place, and the idea of living on the UC didn't came up until Vereesa confessed she felt devastated and broken on the inside.
Post by
Rankkor
So...maybe Wrathion joined with the Infinite Dragonflight to...save uncorrupted black dragons? Maybe?
If Wrathion is the final boss of this expansion...my fury will know no bounds.
What are his motivations? hell if I know. That's yet another thing about the book that I dislike. It focused way too much on the trial (Which went nowhere) and the sylvanas plot (which went nowhere) and only the final pages had any actual important stuff that's relevant to the game (Garrosh's escape)
Well, the most important part (Garrosh's Escape) left more questions than answers, since barely anything was revealed. Why is Wrathion doing this? who knows, why is kairoz cooperating? who knows. Where did the infinite dragonflight came from? who knows (Its worth mentioning that all the dragon ex-aspects were present at the trial, except for Nozdormu who has mysteriously vanished again). Why is shokia helping Garrosh (When in Siege of Orgrimmar she helped us take him down) who knows.
It left more questions than answers. That's what pissed me the hell off.
Update: its seems the spoilers are all true. Christie Golden herself said on tweeter she has been following the discussion in MMOC for at least 50 pages, and at no point has she decried the spoilers as fake, when the OP asked her in tweeter if she was upset that he was revealing spoilers, she said she wasn't as long as he didn't put the whole book online or entire chapters. Small paragraphs are ok as long as they're few and far between.
Also, the spoilers I revealed only cover part of the book, there's a few snippets here and there that weren't mentioned by the OP of the original thread.
Post by
470415
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Still a stupid side plot...but goes with what is sounding more and more like an even worse book then the previous one. Guess we'll have to wait till the 6th to find out for certain.
Update: its seems the spoilers are all true. Christie Golden herself said on tweeter she has been following the discussion in MMOC for at least 50 pages, and at no point has she decried the spoilers as fake, when the OP asked her in tweeter if she was upset that he was revealing spoilers, she said she wasn't as long as he didn't put the whole book online or entire chapters. Small paragraphs are ok as long as they're few and far between.Are you *!@#ing kidding me?
Derailment here....but I wish Knaak would step up and tell Blizzard to back the &*!@ off. First Kalec, now Vereesa...jesu, are they trying to ruin all of his characters or something? If they don't want them around, just kill them off already then rather then pervert them into horrific caricatures. Dawn of the Aspects got back a little bit of the original character of Kalec...and then dumped it again. Oh well, what can you do.
Edit: I still love Wrath, since we saw the manipulation that the Dragons are famous for right up until someone stepped off his plan and he acted like his true age when he raged over it.
There were a lot worse characters who have popped up in the last couple of years.
Post by
Rankkor
Derailment here....but I wish Knaak would step up and tell Blizzard to back the &*!@ off. First Kalec, now Vereesa...jesu, are they trying to ruin all of his characters or something?
as if there was much to ruin :P
I'm just teasing. But honestly, his characters are.... not the best I've seen man. Frankly I don't miss rhonin, or krasus one iota. Thura is terrible. Vereesa was absolutely one of the most annoying characters in the entire verse, all she did was whine and act like a harpy during Day of the Dragon. And her brief role both in cataclysm and MoP have had her acting like a scumbag. At least this subplot showed there's an actual wounded woman behind the icicle facade she puts in front of everyone else.
That sylvanas is exactly the same, is something we've known for years due to the quest in TBC where you give her the necklace Alleria gave her. And hell, even Alleria is the same, as she acted like a complete jerk and yet, she had a soft squishy center behind the ice-wall that she revealed to Turalyon.
It fits their established personalities and the plot served to flesh out Vereesa as a character who is not a rage-a-holic 24/7 but rather a grieving woman that is feeling huge doses of guilt over the loss of her husband to the point she's estranged her own kids and briefly considered leaving them behind for good. My only lament over this plot arc is how it led to nowhere, and at the end of the day, the status quo was preserved as if none of it had happened.
But what DID happened was pretty good, and it served to give her SOME characterization behind the unilateral "woman who whines and complains a lot" persona that Knaak gave her.
Sorry man, but all of Knaak's characters are unilateral stereotypes with a single defining trait and absolutely no depth to them whatsoever. You can practically describe each in a single sentence. So there's not much to ruin really. I'm hoping Thura is the next one to get "goldenfied" because frankly we need a REAL saurfang in the family.
I still love Wrath, since we saw the manipulation that the Dragons are famous for right up until someone stepped off his plan and he acted like his true age when he raged over it.
There were a lot worse characters who have popped up in the last couple of years.
Yeah I love wrathion too. He was among my favorite characters in the game, and his temper tantrum at the end was hilarious. It helps that his voice actor is sooooooo good.
Post by
Adamsm
Yeah? Tell that to the train wreck that Golden turned Kalec into during Tides of War: He was a living plot point, who did jack %^&* through out that god awful book. I'd be horrified if she tried to do something to Thura, considering her recent work with characters.
Post by
Rankkor
Yeah? Tell that to the train wreck that Golden turned Kalec into during Tides of War: He was a living plot point, who did jack %^&* through out that god awful book. I'd be horrified if she tried to do something to Thura, considering her recent work with characters.
well not all balls can be home runs :P (Yes I dislike the direction his character has taken, and the same can be said about jaina, but many other characters handled by golden have shown a lot of improvement. Say what you will about Tides of War, but Hamuul was a BADASS on it. Baine? BADASS. Vol'jin? BADASS.)
Post by
Stabhorn
Don't get me wrong, Wrathion is one of my favorite characters. I just would have preferred him to stay on our side...
Post by
Adamsm
Vol'jin? BADASS.He was a thousand times more badass in Shadow of the Horde.
Of course..if you notice, all of the Alliance branded characters seemed to get hit with a derailment stick in Tides of War: Generals and Commanders show up, successfully repel the Horde assault...and all die for no $%^&ing reason.
Post by
Rankkor
Vol'jin? BADASS.He was a thousand times more badass in Shadow of the Horde.
Of course..if you notice, all of the Alliance branded characters seemed to get hit with a derailment stick in Tides of War: Generals and Commanders show up, successfully repel the Horde assault...and all die for no $%^&ing reason.
and how exactly is that golden's fault? The ending outcome of the siege of theramoore was that the city would be completely destroyed. This much we knew even before the book was out. I think you are simply taking it out on the writer just because the plot went in a direction you didn't enjoyed.
As for derailing alliance characters, Knaak did a far worse job off it. Don't even get me started on what he did to Maiev.
Don't get me wrong, Wrathion is one of my favorite characters. I just would have preferred him to stay on our side...
hmmm, he was never on our side. He was on his side.
Also, here's the
tweet
by golden regarding how she read the discussion thread in MMOC. Though I can't find the one where she gave permission to the OP to post the spoilers as long as he didn't posted entire chapters. There's just too many pages T_T
Post by
Stabhorn
Yeesh, there's only three named black dragons still alive (not counting Wrathion) and one is unconfirmed.
Sabellian,
Serinar
and
Nihil.
(I wonder if we'll see him on Alternate!Draenor.)
EDIT: It could also be noted that
Furywing,
Hemathion
and
Insidion
might all still be alive, since killing them was optional, unconfirmed lore-wise and
Obsidia
survived.
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