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Post by
Rankkor
At no point does Varian's inability to lose become okay, or invalidate Thrall's horrible ability to talk people to death. Quite frankly if the two were ever legitimately in a fight, I'm pretty sure Thrall would somehow talk Varian into killing himself, who would then survive, unscathed, at the expense of a few minor characters. They'd then ride their sparklehorses into the sunset.
While I also agree with this, here's the thing: this is the first time I've ever heard you say anything like this. Even if more people share your opinion, they certainly are a lot more...... vocal, in their hatred for Thrall, than Varian.
You constantly get caught up on what's happening to the horde. The story is bigger than that and it's flawed on both sides. It's not specifically imbalanced on any one side, rather, nothing in the overarching scheme of things is going right.
And I fully acknowledged this on my review of MoP
here.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I tend to avoid these kind of arguments. I'm often ignored.
Fair enough.
And I fully acknowledged this on my review of MoP
here.
I'm afraid I didn't read that
:P feel free to read it if you like, on it I go over what I liked and what I disliked on the plot of MoP. (Specifically on the segment "Lore and Story complaints")
the TL;DR version of what I didn't liked in the plot would be: This game treated almost every likable female character like dirt, and both the horde and the alliance got a poor story. Horde got a lot of attention but it was the negative kind, the type almost everyone would hate to receive, and the alliance barely got any attention at all, and what little they got, was 99.99% given to the humans, in fact you dont' even see the other leaders in the alliance ending cinematic, because apparently, alliance is just Varian+Jaina+Anduin. Everyone else doesn't matter.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I just can't wrap my head around how can some people (I'm not directly accusing you specifically, just putting this out there that a lot of people do say this) can say that the attack on Taurajo was perfectly justified, but the attack on theramoore was an attrocity, even in-universe the characters on both sides say this...
Well, first of all Rank I do resent the opinion that the Horde thought Theramore deserved to be nuked. They agreed it should be taken down, but no one other than Garrosh and affiliated cronies (and probably Sylvanas) thought using an actual WMD was a good idea (hypocritically after giving Sylvanas flack for using her own WMD), if for no other reason than that it opened an ugly new aspect for how to run the conflict.
But...... if you feel this way about thrall, do you have ANY sympathy for Jaina?
Anyway, despite not answering my statement, I'll answer yours.
As for Jaina, my feelings are mixed. Jaina is essentially the new Garrosh, in irregularity if not motivation. I highly suspect her sudden attitude adjustment has much in common with the fact that her model update makes her look like an anime character. She's not really a character anymore. Rather, she's more like the third personality of Varian. The angry one. Blizzard understood that Varian has developed a lot as a character over WoW, thanks in no small part to Anduin, but then realized that if he doesn't want war, conflict will be difficult to manage between the two. So Jaina was made angry because it was the easiest way to go about it.
Personally, I felt that was a bed decision. I honestly think using Tyrande might have been better. She has reason to hate the Horde, she is a military commander so she wouldn't be adverse to war, her home is still on the front line and under siege, and she really needs more screen time. And honestly? Such a role would be far more of an organic development for the more xenophobic race. They don't exactly forgive well. For Jaina, it just didn't fit, and it shows.
I don't really see Jaina the current as in need of pity, or contempt. She's not a character anymore. She's a device. A horrible, awkward device to force conflict. It was rather a profound writing fumble by the Blizzard team, much like the majority of their moves with the primary storyline, that saw her become the crazy woman we now know.
But the thing is: Thrall WAS the leader of a faction, the earthen ring. Much the same way as Tirion was the leader of the Argent Crusade and showed up in a whooping ELEVEN times during WOTLK (even getting credit for the LK kill) and yet nobody had any problem with that.
In my opinion, it was how they treated those two roles which makes the difference. In Wrath, Tirion was a huge character and had a huge part. However, his part was remarkably passive. He was in many places, but he never really took center stage. Everything he did happened behind the players and to support their doings, from building the Argent Tournament grounds, fighting the Lich King, to even having us retrieving his sword from Utgarde. He was there, but it was that he was behind you all the way that made the difference. You were the hero alongside a hero right to the end.
Thrall was the opposite. Whenever he showed up, you were behind him. He was using the Dragon Soul to damage Deathwing, he was the one Benedictus showed up to try and assassinate, he was the one getting his soul split. It was all about Thrall. You were the faceless army backing up the main character in the story in their final charge. You weren't made to feel you were important to these events. You were just along for the ride. Even after killing Deathwing, it was all about Thrall and his lover. You were a footnote in his story as 'the people who helped Thrall kill Deathwing'.
And then, when Thrall might have an important role to play, he vanishes. Garrosh turns the Horde into something truly terrible, and Thrall is nowhere to be found. There is no reason given and, frankly, I don't know if one could be. He wasn't locked up by Garrosh, the Cataclysm was done, the Maelstrom repaired. The simple fact is that if Thrall had been in the expansion, Garrosh would have been horribly hamstrung. And Blizzard realized that. That if Thrall had been there, they couldn't have had this happen. It was unspoken, but Thrall on his own was that important. So what happened to him? He was made to simply disappear. No reason given. No questions asked. He was simply gone until the eleventh hour.
I think that's the reason he is so resented. It is that he always dominates whatever story he is in, and people are getting rather sick of it.
And FYI at no point is thrall ever highlighted as the sole reason the maelstrom didn't go nuclear.
I said half, as he was the only person on the Azeroth side holding it stable when you stop by. There are a bunch down in the depths, but just him on the top side.
Post by
Rankkor
And FYI at no point is thrall ever highlighted as the sole reason the maelstrom didn't go nuclear.
I said half, as he was the only person on the Azeroth side holding it stable when you stop by. There are a bunch down in the depths, but just him on the top side.
Nope, both in the book and in the game there are plenty of shamans there holding it together.
On the game you can see Nobundo and Muln Earthfury channeling to keep the maelstrom stable. They're not in the same platform as Thrall is, but they're still there.
Edit: I'll answer your other points in a bit, doign raids ATM. Futher Edits incoming.
Post by
Rankkor
I just can't wrap my head around how can some people (I'm not directly accusing you specifically, just putting this out there that a lot of people do say this) can say that the attack on Taurajo was perfectly justified, but the attack on theramoore was an attrocity, even in-universe the characters on both sides say this...
Well, first of all Rank I do resent the opinion that the Horde thought Theramore deserved to be nuked. They agreed it should be taken down, but no one other than Garrosh and affiliated cronies (and probably Sylvanas) thought using an actual WMD was a good idea (hypocritically after giving Sylvanas flack for using her own WMD), if for no other reason than that it opened an ugly new aspect for how to run the conflict.
I'm willing to concede that the mana bomb was WAAAAAAAAY overkill, but one thing's for sure, Theramoore was BEGGING to be attacked and razed to the ground for its involvement in the war, much like how taurajo was burned down. At least the horde allowed plenty of time for the civilians to get away (and yes, garrosh captured a few, so? he did it without the consent or knowledge of the rest of the horde, as he also kidnapped several horde citizens, and denizens of pandaria as seen in the Spoils of Pandaria encounter, still, most of them got away, unlike taurajo which was the opposite, most died, a few managed to escape)
Jaina's reaction comes off as super hypocritical for wanting to destroy orgrimmar, or even destroy the horde, considering her city was involved in quite a lot of horde casualties.
Anyway, despite not answering my statement, I'll answer yours.
Which one? D= I must have missed it.
But...... if you feel this way about thrall, do you have ANY sympathy for Jaina?
As for Jaina, my feelings are mixed. Jaina is essentially the new Garrosh, in irregularity if not motivation. I highly suspect her sudden attitude adjustment has much in common with the fact that her model update makes her look like an anime character. She's not really a character anymore. Rather, she's more like the third personality of Varian. The angry one. Blizzard understood that Varian has developed a lot as a character over WoW, thanks in no small part to Anduin, but then realized that if he doesn't want war, conflict will be difficult to manage between the two. So Jaina was made angry because it was the easiest way to go about it.
Personally, I felt that was a bed decision. I honestly think using Tyrande might have been better. She has reason to hate the Horde, she is a military commander so she wouldn't be adverse to war, her home is still on the front line and under siege, and she really needs more screen time. And honestly? Such a role would be far more of an organic development for the more xenophobic race. They don't exactly forgive well. For Jaina, it just didn't fit, and it shows.
I don't really see Jaina the current as in need of pity, or contempt. She's not a character anymore. She's a device. A horrible, awkward device to force conflict. It was rather a profound writing fumble by the Blizzard team, much like the majority of their moves with the primary storyline, that saw her become the crazy woman we now know.
Whoa, I never looked at it from that angle, bravo sir, bravo, I definetly approve of your idea, I would had liked if the treatment given to jaina was instead given to Tyrande, and unlike Jaina, this would had actually fit in nicely with her personality from Warcraft 3 (This was the same woman who indiscriminately attacked humans and orcs on the spot without even attempting diplomacy, who later disobeyed Malfurion and freed a dangerous criminal on nothing more than a whim, and who was incredibly xenophobic and aggressive.)
And then, when Thrall might have an important role to play, he vanishes. Garrosh turns the Horde into something truly terrible, and Thrall is nowhere to be found. There is no reason given and, frankly, I don't know if one could be. He wasn't locked up by Garrosh, the Cataclysm was done, the Maelstrom repaired. The simple fact is that if Thrall had been in the expansion, Garrosh would have been horribly hamstrung. And Blizzard realized that. That if Thrall had been there, they couldn't have had this happen. It was unspoken, but Thrall on his own was that important. So what happened to him? He was made to simply disappear. No reason given. No questions asked. He was simply gone until the eleventh hour.
I think that's the reason he is so resented. It is that he always dominates whatever story he is in, and people are getting rather sick of it.
I suppose up to a point I do agree on this bit.
But the thing is: Thrall WAS the leader of a faction, the earthen ring. Much the same way as Tirion was the leader of the Argent Crusade and showed up in a whooping ELEVEN times during WOTLK (even getting credit for the LK kill) and yet nobody had any problem with that.
In my opinion, it was how they treated those two roles which makes the difference. In Wrath, Tirion was a huge character and had a huge part. However, his part was remarkably passive. He was in many places, but he never really took center stage. Everything he did happened behind the players and to support their doings, from building the Argent Tournament grounds, fighting the Lich King, to even having us retrieving his sword from Utgarde. He was there, but it was that he was behind you all the way that made the difference. You were the hero alongside a hero right to the end.
Thrall was the opposite. Whenever he showed up, you were behind him. He was using the Dragon Soul to damage Deathwing, he was the one Benedictus showed up to try and assassinate, he was the one getting his soul split. It was all about Thrall. You were the faceless army backing up the main character in the story in their final charge. You weren't made to feel you were important to these events. You were just along for the ride. Even after killing Deathwing, it was all about Thrall and his lover. You were a footnote in his story as 'the people who helped Thrall kill Deathwing'.
However on this one, I respecfully disagree. Sorry man, Tirion didn't felt passive AT ALL when he singlehandedly oneshotted 10000 scourge units that were winning at light's hope.
he didn't felt passive when he led the charge to icecrown, and I most certainly didn't felt like the center stage in ICC when it was tirion leading everything, and him getting all the props. For all intents and purposes, it was him leading the story, and us passively following along while also bickering with the opposite faction which Tirion singlehandedly brought together with a tournament in the middle of the enemy lines.
And my problem with that is that nobody has a problem with that, but they have a problem with thrall having the audacity to show up 5 times in a single expansion =/
I dunno how else to put it.
Edit: To put this in context with the example you gave, lemme replace a few words:
Whenever tirion showed up, you were behind him. He was using the Ashbringer to damage the Lich King, he was the one the Lich King showed up to try and assassinate right in the middle of his tournament, he was the one trying to redeem the soul of Arthas. It was him at the critical hour weakening the Lich King by shattering frostmourne and delivering the final blow. It was him who apparently had enough pull to call in favors with the Ancients, the Dragons, and the Naaru just to save one of his men and send him to heaven. It was him who had enough pull with both the alliance and horde to not just make them work together when nobody else could, but also to make them accept Death Knights into their ranks. It was him who could purify a blade that was previously established to be corrupted beyond all hopes of salvation just by touching it for a second. It was all about Tirion. You were the faceless army backing up the main character in the story in their final charge. You weren't made to feel you were important to these events. You were just along for the ride. Even after killing Arthas, it was all about Tirion and his temptation to be the barrier holding the undead back. You were a footnote in his story as 'the people who helped Tirion end The Lich King'.
See the similarities? come on man, you can't possibly NOT see the parallels, but nope, nobody had a problem with that, but they have a problem when its the green man doing the same thing.
Post by
Monday
IMO, the different between Thrall and Tirion was the writing. Tirion's story in Wrath was incredibly well written.
Thrall's in Cataclysm was... not.
I wouldn't mind following behind someone if they were freaking awesome like Tirion was, but I'd be really annoyed if they were bland and not at all as cool as they used to be, like Thrall (and romantic plot tumors, ugh).
Post by
Rankkor
IMO, the different between Thrall and Tirion was the writing. Tirion's story in Wrath was incredibly well written.
Thrall's in Cataclysm was... not.
I wouldn't mind following behind someone if they were freaking awesome like Tirion
Personally, other than the horrible HORRIBLE romantic plot tumor, I don't see any difference whatsoever between Tirion and Thrall. In fact, the former is WAY more of a sue than the latter (considering all the many outrageous things Tirion did in his expansion, come on, the dude was calling favors from the Naaru, the Dragon Queen, and the Ancients. WHO DOES THAT?)
My point is: Tirion gets to do all sorts of awesome stuff in WOTLK (Including breaking Frostmourne in a single hit with a flying backflip) and everyone was like "ohhh cooooool"
Then Thrall gets to do a few cool things here and there (including shooting deathwing with the dragon soul) and suddenly everyone goes GREEN JEBUS, GO AWAY, WE DON'T WANT YOU.
Then Thrall gets less than a cameo in MoP and I hear people complaining again? what the hell.
Post by
oneforthemoney
To be honest, even if I agreed on that assessment, I didn't so much mind being a footnote for Tyrion. Tyrion and Arthas had this great dualism going for them, and that he would fight Arthas with us was expected throughout the expansion. It had a lot of lead up with us taking part in, from helping build the tournament grounds to establishing beach heads for the Argent Dawn in Icecrown and the Fleshwerks. It was...expected, I suppose. Tyrion needed to fight Arthas in Wrath. The Ashen Verdict needed to invade. It was something which needed definite closure.
With Thrall, it felt a lot like the whole 'there must always be a Lich King' in an expansion pack form. His role in these events felt very awkwardly tagged on. Even fighting Ragnaros, something he might have actually had a role in, was pushed aside into a wedding because the druids had first dibs on the firelord thanks to Hyjal and Staghelm being a twit. So we had Thrall to fight Deathwing.
But why did we? From a storytelling perspective mind you, not Blizzard's explanation. We didn't really see it coming, or even need it to happen. Would we all have cried 'foul!' if we fought Deathwing without the Dragon Soul stupidity? We literally needed to travel back in time to make Thrall relevant for that. A showdown between Thrall and Deathwing didn't feel right, unlike the one with Arthas and Tyrion. Light versus Dark, that old but good cliche. Deathwing's great foe was Alexstrasza, and when those two met up it was something to see. Thrall in Cataclysm was almost redundant, because he was there, but he didn't
need
to be there.
Post by
Adamsm
Because of the derailment of the character.
Post by
Snake387
At least the horde allowed plenty of time for the civilians to get away (and yes, garrosh captured a few, so?
Only one ship left Theramore. Guess what Garrosh's prisoners were on before they were captured?
Post by
Rankkor
Only one ship left Theramore. Guess what Garrosh's prisoners were on before they were captured?
Nope.
The horde warned Theramoore of the attack several days before to give them ample of time to evacuate the civilians. And if you honestly, seriously, for reals believe the entire civilian population of a major city can fit into a single ship, then I have this
bridge
here I'd like to sell you.
Post by
781960
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
This right here is what bugs me the most about alliance players complaining about Thrall being shoved down their throats
Pfft, Its not just the alliance players, I've seen just as many horde players making the same complaint, which is just as mind-boggling.
Post by
Monday
This right here is what bugs me the most about alliance players
Love your
ad hominem
. It's not like I started World of Warcraft with a bunch of Horde characters or anything.
most of the time they will ignore or deny Hobo Jesus in Wrath of the Lich King.
Strength of writing, as I said earlier. Thrall's writing sucked balls, therefore he was a bad character. Tirion's writing did not, therefore he was a good one. This logic isn't that difficult.
Post by
Adamsm
Aye, Thrall started as a strong excellent character....and then the Shattering happened and it was character derailment all through out Cata and it's still exists; he was a living deus ex machina for Tides of War. It's possible he may get better in WoD, but at this point, I'm not holding my breath.
Post by
morginar
It's possible he may get better in WoD
Sudden case of death shared with the king of wolves?
and then the Shattering happened and it was character derailment all through out Cata and it's still exists
There was pleanty of chars that derailed in cata. In a oncoming book I hope one of then gets doomhammered back onto the rail.
Post by
Rankkor
It's possible he may get better in WoD
Sudden case of death shared with the king of wolves?
and then the Shattering happened and it was character derailment all through out Cata and it's still exists
There was pleanty of chars that derailed in cata. In a oncoming book I hope one of then gets doomhammered back onto the rail.
See? that's the thing right there. Did Cataclysm ruined Thrall's character? Yeah it caused a lot of damage, but so it did for quite a lot of characters, its a little jarring the sudden focus on Thrall.
Anyhows, I'm hoping too that WoD turns the derailment back on track, WITHOUT dumping all the undesirable characteristics on someone else. I mean MoP finally fixed Varian, but at the cost of ruining Jaina AND Tyrande. Thrall can be fixed, but does it mean someone else will have to turn into an over-sensitive, whiny, and annoying insufferable brat?
Post by
oneforthemoney
I'm afraid Tyrande was ruined back in Cata. Her in MoP was merely a symptom rather than the disease.
Post by
morginar
I'm afraid Tyrande was ruined back in Cata. Her in MoP was merely a symptom rather than the disease.
And the same goes for the banshee queen.
But with the power of Golden things can turn to the beter.
And I hope the leader short stories are made non-canon.
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