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Post by
Adamsm
Are we taking about what she says about the Horde in the cinematic after you beat Garrosh? She said dismantle the Horde, as in the organization. Not as in exterminate all the orcs. A reasonable consideration all things considered.
Of course while she grief maddened, she was intending on dropping a massive tidal wave on Durotan and drowning every single living thing there.....mind you, that is from the horrific novel but still.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Are we taking about what she says about the Horde in the cinematic after you beat Garrosh? She said dismantle the Horde, as in the organization. Not as in exterminate all the orcs. A reasonable consideration all things considered.
Of course while she grief maddened, she was intending on dropping a massive tidal wave on Durotan and drowning every single living thing there.....mind you, that is from the horrific novel but still.
Having a nuke dropped on your city tends to provoke that kind of reaction. Particularly when one has the kind of power to facilitate it.
Post by
Rankkor
Are we taking about what she says about the Horde in the cinematic after you beat Garrosh? She said dismantle the Horde, as in the organization. Not as in exterminate all the orcs. A reasonable consideration all things considered.
Of course while she grief maddened, she was intending on dropping a massive tidal wave on Durotan and drowning every single living thing there.....mind you, that is from the horrific novel but still.
Having a nuke dropped on your city tends to provoke that kind of reaction. Particularly when one has the kind of power to facilitate it.
Having a nuke dropped on your city because your city attacked those who dropped the nuke first, kinda nullifies your right to complain.
She didn't wanted her city nuked? she should had stayed out of the fight. her and her troops.
Post by
oneforthemoney
A bit difficult when you were already more or less engaged in a cold war with the orcs thanks to them allying with the ogres in your territory.
Post by
Adamsm
Only problem with that analogy Rank is the fact that Garrosh started that portion of the war; the other Horde leaders were willing to leave Theramore alone but he decided that he would destroy the only Alliance eastern port(sound military decision)...but he's the one who used a weapon of mass destruction, after completely annihilating the other Alliance out posts in the Southern Barrens by using his Dark Shamans and bound Lava Giants. It's one thing to die 'honourably', it's quite another to be stepped on, immolated, torn limb from limb and have a bomb that warped time and space, killing the forces of the Alliance incredibly painfully and making it so that the bodies literally fell to pieces.
Sure it was war...but what was done to them is a lot worse then what had occurred up to that point.
Post by
Rankkor
A bit difficult when you were already more or less engaged in a cold war with the orcs thanks to them allying with the ogres in your territory.
said ogres weren't attacking theramoore, in fact, the horde kept them in check.
And specifically Theramoore wasn't a part of the cold war with the horde, in fact they had a non-agression treaty, which is why theramoore was held as neutral grounds for the first peace summit (on which varian rage-quitted).
Again, she didn't wanted to get attacked? She should had kept better control of her forces and stay out of the fight. She was already doing enough by allowing the alliance to use her port as the major staging area for the attacks across kalimdor, that's already aiding the enemy but its passable I guess. But actually sending troops to attack the horde on multiple fronts? yeah that's grounds for retaliatory attacks.
Post by
Rankkor
Only problem with that analogy Rank is the fact that Garrosh started that portion of the war; the other Horde leaders were willing to leave Theramore alone but he decided that he would destroy the only Alliance eastern port(sound military decision)...but
he's the one who used a weapon of mass destruction
, after completely annihilating the other Alliance out posts in the Southern Barrens by using his Dark Shamans and bound Lava Giants. It's one thing to die 'honourably', it's quite another to be stepped on, immolated, torn limb from limb and have a bomb that warped time and space, killing the forces of the Alliance incredibly painfully and making it so that the bodies literally fell to pieces.
Sure it was war...but what was done to them is a lot worse then what had occurred up to that point.
The alliance has no right to complain about the use of WMDs when they tried to use FIVE of them to obliterate the entire hillsbrad/alterac region. If the forsaken hand't stopped them, they could had pretty much annihilated the entire frostwolf tribe, along with countless civilians.
Almost every single thing the alliance complains the horde has done to them, they have done to the horde, more often than not first, and/or unprovoked.
Post by
Adamsm
She didn't send the troops Rank; the Theramore forces would fall under the same umbrella as pretty much all of the other Alliance forces. If a member of the Alliance calls for military aids, the soldiers will join. Same as if the Horde put out the call, you'd see lots of forces joining, even if the leaders don't agree with the Warchief(seen again in Tides of War with Sylvanas and Lor'themar merely sending token forces to join the war effor).
Edit: The alliance has no right to complain about the use of WMDs when they tried to use FIVE of them to obliterate the entire hillsbrad/alterac region. If the forsaken hand't stopped them, they could had pretty much annihilated the entire frostwolf tribe, along with countless civilians. Uh huh...and why did the Stormpike do that? Oh right, because the Forsaken had Blighted Southshore, captured a large number of civilians and put them into the ground, destroyed Ambermill and wiped out the Kirin Tor members there, and of course assaulted Gilneas. Wasn't right, but when dealing with an apparent race intent on killing all of the living in the area well, you go for the big boot rather then hitting them with a fly swatter. The Frostwolves would have been unfortunate casualities, but as a large portion of the population of Southshore had been wiped out(both human and worgen versions), you can't blame them for trying to get vengeance.
And the Mana Bomb is still one of the worst weapons out there, up there with the Blight, since pretty much every body that Jaina saw in the ruins of Theramore had expressions of horror and pain frozen onto their face; no one died 'peacefully' that were caught in the blast of that thing.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Well, there was also the Grimtotem's burning down the Shady Rest Inn and the village around it. Not to mention that the Forsaken were helping those specific Grimtotem, as demonstrated with the quest,
The Apothecary's Letter
. But hey, the Horde can't be blamed for some rogue pieces of their forces acting against their factions neutral stance, right?
Post by
Rankkor
She didn't send the troops Rank; the Theramore forces would fall under the same umbrella as pretty much all of the other Alliance forces. If a member of the Alliance calls for military aids, the soldiers will join. Same as if the Horde put out the call, you'd see lots of forces joining, even if the leaders don't agree with the Warchief(seen again in Tides of War with Sylvanas and Lor'themar merely sending token forces to join the war effor).
doesn't negates the fact that the troops came from her city, and the bulk of the attacks were staged and organized from her city.
Or you mean to tell me that after everything her troops did, and after allowing countless attacks that led to hundreds of civilian and military casualties on the horde, they still weren't entitled to fight back? So..... the horde was supposed to get hit and do nothing? seriously?
The troops were from her city, and the backup of said troops came THROUGH her city. Her lands were facilitating casualties on the horde, so why is she complaining when they hit back? If you mean because they used a WMD, read my comment above, the alliance tried to use FIVE against the horde all at once, so they have no right to complain if the horde uses one too.
Post by
Adamsm
Read my edit.
Also, ease back a bit Rank.
Post by
Rankkor
Well, there was also the Grimtotem's burning down the Shady Rest Inn and the village around it. Not to mention that the Forsaken were helping those specific Grimtotem, as demonstrated with the quest,
The Apothecary's Letter
. But hey, the Horde can't be blamed for some rogue pieces of their forces acting against their factions neutral stance, right?
Not the same. Those troops weren't acting with the blessing of the horde, and in fact the horde took matters into their own hands and punished the culprits. And I don't mean "punish" as in finger-waggling and "don't do it again" post-its, I mean BURN TO THE GROUND punish.
Did Jaina even batted an eyelash at the massive (practically her entire military forces) amount of troops pouring through to Durotar and the barrens? hell no, let them do whatever they want, kill people, burn villages, loot and pillage, have fun.
Did the horde held the same stance against the grimtotem?
nope.
As for the forsaken aid, your guess is as good as mine because it was NEVER clarified where did it came from, or why, but here's my speculation: Varimathras (remember this was a vanilla quest).
HE was the one controlling most (if not all) of the RAS, so it wouldnt surprise me in the least if he was secretly aiding the grimtotems to debilitate the horde and alliance. Of course that's nothing but speculation on my end, because as I said before, it was never really clarified, that was an unsolved mystery.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Shock of shocks! You mean that a faction doesn't have implicit command over every member of their military and non military personnel? That when some members go rogue, it takes time to track them down, and by then the damage is already done? That some (Forsaken) are never even called out on it even though it seems like a really good idea to mention the people who like making plague are outside a neutral city's door, and with people who are waging war against said neutral city? My. Well, we had best make sure we scour every member of our city every day to make sure they didn't join the army marching through here and possibly do some harm. That would clearly be a practical course of action.
By the way, mind linking those five WMD's for me? I'm having difficulty finding them.
Post by
Rankkor
Shock of shocks! You mean that a faction doesn't have implicit command over every member of their military and non military personnel? That when
some
members go rogue, it takes time to track them down, and by then the damage is already done? That some (Forsaken) are never even called out on it even though it seems like a really good idea to mention the people who like making plague are outside a neutral city's door, and with people who are waging war against said neutral city? My. Well, we had best make sure we scour every member of our city every day to make sure they didn't join the army marching through here and possibly do some harm. That would clearly be a practical course of action.
"Some" yes, ALL, no.
It wasn't a dozen soldiers from theramoore that just started attacking the horde. It was a full batallion, deployed at six different fronts, and with full blessing of theramoore because they used it as a staging point to keep sending more and more.
And unlike the grimtotem shenanigans (including the apothecary involvement) they weren't doing this behind the shadows, with subtlety, and subterfuge, they were operating right in the open, side-by-side with troops from stormwind, and marching right through the dustwallow marsh into almost every horde land they could reach.
And was ANYTHING done about this? nope, Jaina was just like "meh, do what you want, have fun".
If you really want me to think Jaina knew NOTHING about her troops collaborating with Stormwind to wage war on the horde and was completely unaware of her city being used as a staging point for every attack on a continental scale on the horde, that is a LOT TO BUY man, and I do mean A LOT to buy.
By the way, mind linking those five WMD's for me? I'm having difficulty finding them.
Hillsbrad Foothills horde questline for cataclysm.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Right, so I read that questline and it seems the closest approximation for 'Weapon's of Mass Destruction' was the five fingers of the Stormpike, which was not really so much WMD's as military movements and positions. Unless you count the pocket nukes you planted there, I suppose. So, I need a bit more here. What WMD's?
Post by
Rankkor
Right, so I read that questline and it seems the closest approximation for 'Weapon's of Mass Destruction' was the five fingers of the Stormpike, which was not really so much WMD's as military movements and positions. Unless you count the pocket nukes you planted there, I suppose. So, I need a bit more here. What WMD's?
To practical effects, the entire steam tank armada that was gonna flatten the entire area and mass-bombard it to hell and back again. They placed an entire mortar division to bomb hillsbrad back to the stoneage.
Its no nuke, but its just as destructive.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Right, so I read that questline and it seems the closest approximation for 'Weapon's of Mass Destruction' was the five fingers of the Stormpike, which was not really so much WMD's as military movements and positions. Unless you count the pocket nukes you planted there, I suppose. So, I need a bit more here. What WMD's?
To practical effects, the entire steam tank armada that was gonna flatten the entire area and mass-bombard it to hell and back again. They placed an entire mortar division to bomb hillsbrad back to the stoneage.
Its no nuke, but its just as destructive.
...You must be joking.
Post by
Rankkor
Right, so I read that questline and it seems the closest approximation for 'Weapon's of Mass Destruction' was the five fingers of the Stormpike, which was not really so much WMD's as military movements and positions. Unless you count the pocket nukes you planted there, I suppose. So, I need a bit more here. What WMD's?
To practical effects, the entire steam tank armada that was gonna flatten the entire area and mass-bombard it to hell and back again. They placed an entire mortar division to bomb hillsbrad back to the stoneage.
Its no nuke, but its just as destructive.
...You must be joking.
alright fine >_> so my memory was a little fuzzy and I forgot that it was us who deployed the pocket nukes to deal with them. My bad, I admit. Doesn't negates the fact that they were preparing to completely obliterate an entire zone (as opposed to just a city) which included several civilians, including the frostwolves.
Post by
Snake387
They WERE the ones who broke the peace treaty first by attacking the horde.
I think that they agreed to keep the peace after the Lich King was killed as it doesn't make sense to go straight into another war after one, and would deplete resources rather quickly on both sides. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense for the Orcs to be sore over the Night Elves not trading with them or the Alliance to be shocked when Garrosh attacked.
On what moral grounds then, can she justify wanting to exterminate the orcs for the attack on theramoore? her own people stroke first. If she didn't authorized it, she sure as hell did nothing to stop it either.
Didn't Garrosh declare that Kalimdor belonged to the Horde? Because if he did, then it makes perfect sense for Theramore to help the Alliance, because otherwise Theramore would be attacked and either destroyed or taken over by the Horde.
which included several civilians, including the frostwolves.
*shrugs* At least they weren't planning to shackle them, take them as slaves and blackmail them by threatening to kill their children.
Post by
Rankkor
which included several civilians, including the frostwolves.
*shrugs* At least they weren't planning to shackle them, take them as slaves and blackmail them by threatening to kill their children.
*narrows eyes*
If you are referring to what the horde forces did in the Twinspire Fortress in Jade Forest, not only I'll remind you that those troops were affected by the sha, the alliance in that same zone, on their secret airfield did something worse, as they kidnapped an entire village and used them as slaves to build their airfield. Children included.
Sha-affected horde troops kidnapped children and used them as bargaining chips.
Sha-affected alliance troops kidnapped children and used them as slaves, along with the adults.
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