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Post by
Monday
The thing is, though... it was the most merciful choice. That doesn't mean it was given out of the bottom of their hearts and all was forgiven.
Post by
Rankkor
What i'm tired of is the villains having to be an damn offshoot, but do you see me complaining?
They're the mainstream and the "Thrall" horde is the minority.
Opinion =/= fact.
Taurens = Overwhelmingly pacifists, not one of them displays the sort of genocidal warmongering streak Garrosh's orcs displayed.
Trolls = Mostly pacifists, they joined the horde when the alliance attacked them without reason on the echo isles, and even then, they've been very relaxed compared to the incredibly militaristic Amani and Gurubashi tribes.
Orcs = For every orc that acts like garrosh (Krom'gar, Greebo, Ishi, Malkorok, Krenna) there's another that acts like Thrall (Drek'thar, Saurfang, Nazgrim, Gorgonna, Rexxar). So they have saints and jerks on their numbers. Exactly like the humans, since for every honorable human out there that acts like Anduin, there's another that acts like Rogers.
The list goes on. Arguably, the one part where you could have a point is the forsaken, since they all act out of obedience to their queen, and she's not exactly spotless.
They don't see orgrimm's glassnost campaign was anything but right, they lionize a war criminal, and they post his name on their capital
Orgrim wasn't the one who started the first or second war, nor was he the one who started the draenei war. He was an orc that saw a horrible situation, and tried his best to correct it, but ultimately failed to do so. He took command of the horde precisely to attempt to steer it in the right direction, but the machinations of gul'dan, and the strength of the demon curse ultimately doomed his efforts.
They GLORIFY the mass-murdering puppy-kicking &*!@#$%s the horde were
Wrong. This shows just how little you know of the horde. They DO NOT glorify what the horde did in the first or second war, in fact, if you go to Warsong Hold on borean tundra, Saurfang makes it a point to give a lengthy speech to Garrosh about just how wrong the orcs were in previous wars, and how utterly lost to depression they became once the curse was lifted and they saw the horrors they made during those dark days. There is no glorifying done there. So please kindly stop spreading misinformation.
and apparently think the alliance were WRONG to put them in internment camps.
Because they were. The correct solution would had been to disarm the army, place the rank and file soldiers and commanding officers in jail for some time (or forever) and then move the civilians to a reservoir and maybe even attempt to treat them of their condition (Antonidas tried, but his efforts fell on deaf ears).
Putting an entire civilization in a concentration camp, forever and ever, including their future offspring (Who made no crime in the first place) and treat them like slaves, cattle, and make them fight each other to the death for their amusement WAS NOT in any spectrum of morality, right.
I loathe to have to resort to crude examples, but I'll do so here: if a rapist violates your mother and your sister, and your wife, and your daugther, would it be ok if you then raped the wife, sister, mother and daughter of the rapist? would it be morally acceptable for you to pay back eye for an eye? the answer is no. It is undeniable that the Old Horde made serious war crimes in the second and specially first war, but condemning them to an eternity of slavery for it is overkill.
If they only knew what the other option was.
As it would had been to repay genocide with more genocide.
Oh how much I loathed how we didn't take advantage of the caverns of time show the various leaders of the alliance what the horde would do, the countless crimes, show them what will happen if they don't kill the orcs then and there.
Which shows you learned NOTHING from the bronze dragonflight. If it wasn't for the horde, the world would had been destroyed. The legion was defeated in the third war because the horde and alliance joined forces together, and fought them off as one. If there was no alliance, or if there was no horde, the burning legion would had won during that battle. Same can be said about the battle at the Star of Destiny, and the retaking of the sunwell.
You have no idea how much it feels good to get that off my chest.
Expressing opinions is all fine and dandy but don't believe for a second that it makes your opinion factual. Specially when you say things like the current horde glorifying the actions of the old horde (Which are seen with heavy condemnation and disapproval, and more of an Old Shame)
A: only one orc was involved in the gladiator rings.
He lost before
He did not die
Wrong. You know, considering how much you idolize varian I'm surprised you haven't read the comics that explain his backstory, because in it, you see no less than SIX orcs who's backstories were that they were forced to fight in glariatorial rings by the alliance. The whole gladiator thing was a wide-spread practice, Thrall was neither the first nor the last. He was particular in that he received human training, and because he wasn't affected by the blood curse, he could actually use his head rather than go all berserker mode.
And the fact that the battles weren't to the death doesn't mean anything, they were still forced to fight each other, and sustain horrible, painful wounds for nothing but the entertainment of bored nobles.
B: Pretty sure all they did was manual labor to offset the cost of feeding them (Which wasn't enough btw). and they were more or less in withdrawal.
Still wrong. Remember, we're talking about women, and children, and future offsprings. Putting the soldiers and commanding officers in jail and force them to work to repay the cost of maintaining them is one thing. Putting the women and the children who had no part in the war to do the same is another. Condemning all future offsprings who have ABSOLUTELY ZERO blame for what their parents did to the same fate is beyond inhumane and monstrous.
I'm not trying to justify the Alliance's actions, but I'm going to explain them:
Why should they bother improving the conditions for the orcs? This was a group that had just tried to wipe them from existence. Who had murdered their wives and children. Who had burned their cities and allied with the most monstrous creatures in all of the multiverse.
This was a group that did not deserve comfort or freedom. This was a group to be maintained and controlled.
Maybe (and this is a pretty big MAYBE) that was the only realistic option the alliance had at the time, considering the massive costs of rebuilding quel'thalas, lordaeron, bringing stability to the alterac region after deposing its monarchy, building the nethergarde keep to prevent any future invasions, funding the expedition to draenor, and rebuilding stormwind (which they couldn't even finish affording so they left the mason guild penniless after they toiled for 12 years rebuilding the city)
So maybe it was the only option, but they were still in the wrong because of what they did DURING that solution. Forcing the orcs to fight each other, and to fight dangerous beasts to entertain themselves? Completely uncalled for. Forcing the orcs into slavery? completely uncalled for. Submitting the prisoners to excessive cruelty (Read: Daily beatings, spitting on them, verbal harrasment) completely uncalled for. Forcing the noncombatants such as women, children, and peons (who are almost child-like on account of their half-wit status) into permanent incarceration? completely uncalled for. And here is the biggest one of them all: Forcing all future offspring of current prisoners to also remain in slavery forever? completely uncalled for.
Maybe the concentration camps were the only option available to them, but the way they handled the situation was morally and ethically wrong on every single imaginable way.
The thing is, though... it was the most merciful choice. That doesn't mean it was given out of the bottom of their hearts and all was forgiven.
Maybe if all that other extra uncalled for thingies hadn't been done? perhaps. But add all that uncalled for cruelty that I just mentioned above and wasn't necessary in any way, and...... forgive my french lil' bro but "most merciful choice" my ass.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
None of us have been flaming here.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Actually Rank, since orc women typically were on the front lines along with the men, it was somewhat called for. And as for children, well...the orcs did have a tendency of taking children one day and having full grown soldiers the next. Not to mention if they did not incarcerate them, they would only go running to what remained of the Horde still waging their war out of Grim Batol, as that was quite literally the only place they could go outside of the camps and be welcome. Drawing a real world equivalent is somewhat impossible.
As for the spitting and abuse, I'll remind you that the people who would volunteer for the jobs of guarding the orcs are unlikely to be the most sympathetic to their plight, but even were they, they had
twelve years
of dealing with demon blood infused orcs, who were violent and most assuredly belligerent. That can grate on anyone's nerves and really make the work of guarding them a breeding ground for the wrong kind of people. There was a great deal of resentment against the Horde, it would be impossible not to have such people come to the fore. Was it right, no, but blaming the Alliance as a whole for doing the best they could with a bad situation is out of line.
So, as for it being morally and ethically wrong on every level imaginable, forgive me for saying so but that is extremely narrow minded.
Post by
Adamsm
6 Money; as per the new time line in the Ultimate Visual guide.
Post by
oneforthemoney
6 Money; as per the new time line in the Ultimate Visual guide.
Does it not say six from second war to 18 the new Horde?
Post by
Adamsm
End of the Second War to start of the New Horde; so that would be 12 years of them in the lethargic state, not as the berserker's that they were during the war.
Post by
Sparkbolt
I know this has nothing to do with the orcs but that guide you linked Adamsm is really pissing me off. Seriously only one year passed between Wrath and Cataclysm? I always thought that would have taken a couple of years for all of what I read to happen. Okay I'm done.
Post by
Adamsm
It's the new official time line /shrug I thought there was more times as well.
Post by
Sparkbolt
It doesn't even make sense. How can all that happen in Stormrage and Shattering(Only two books I've read) take place in one year?
Post by
Adamsm
Easily; Nightmare War took place just after the Fall of the King, then a few months after that Shattering happens, then the Cataclysm itself breaks over Azeroth. I admit, I still prefer the 3 years between them, but oh well.
Post by
Rankkor
Not to mention if they did not incarcerate them, they would only go running to what remained of the Horde still waging their war out of Grim Batol, as that was quite literally the only place they could go outside of the camps and be welcome. Drawing a real world equivalent is somewhat impossible.
Frostwolves would like to say hi.
Was it right, no, but blaming the Alliance as a whole for doing the best they could with a bad situation is out of line.
why? some people (not saying everyone) don't seem to have a problem with doing the exact same thing with Orgrim Doomhammer.
So, as for it being morally and ethically wrong on every level imaginable, forgive me for saying so but that is extremely narrow minded.
That's your prerogative, not mine. They should had disciplined the guards who abused the prisoners. As someone who actually was in a prison, and had to endure LOTS of abuse, forgive me if I don't really tolerate or excuse the attitude of the alliance once they won.
Besides, even if you could somewhat defend the poor treatment, and abuse, where do you leave the part where they forced them to fight for their amusement? how is that not morally wrong in multiple levels? Was that necessary in any way? And then there's the incarceration of future offspring, isn't that overkill?
Post by
oneforthemoney
Not to mention if they did not incarcerate them, they would only go running to what remained of the Horde still waging their war out of Grim Batol, as that was quite literally the only place they could go outside of the camps and be welcome. Drawing a real world equivalent is somewhat impossible.
Frostwolves would like to say hi.
The unfortunate part involving them is that they were a tribe on the run. Caring for too many would have killed all of them through either severely stretched resources or the Alliance still looking for them.
That's your prerogative, not mine. They should had disciplined the guards who abused the prisoners. As someone who actually was in a prison, and had to endure LOTS of abuse, forgive me if I don't really tolerate or excuse the attitude of the alliance once they won.
Besides, even if you could somewhat defend the poor treatment, and abuse, where do you leave the part where they forced them to fight for their amusement? how is that not morally wrong in multiple levels? Was that necessary in any way? And then there's the incarceration of future offspring, isn't that overkill?
What would they do with the future offspring? That is something to consider. Aside from what they did do, which was leave them with their parents, the alternative is to take them away to be raised in some mass orphanage, and you best believe they would never be exposed to even a touch of orc culture in such hands.
As for the battling for amusement bit I hate to say it Rank, but Thrall apparently doesn't have many compunctions about that himself, as we saw with the gladiator slaves owned by orcs during Wrynn's recent amnesiac adventure being set to fight one another to the death. So it may be wrong, but the orcs even beneath a benevolent ruler such as Thrall are hardly innocent of it themselves.
Post by
Adamsm
Of course the ones during Thrall's reign were illegal...the ones that Blackmoore ran? Not so much; nobles, including the then heir to the throne of Lordaeron, would go and enjoy the sight of the Greenskins being brutalized for their amusement, and possibly get rich off the deal....and no money went to the slaves.
Post by
oneforthemoney
http://wowpedia.org/Slavery#Orcish_Slavery
and
http://wowpedia.org/Orc#Slavery
and finally
http://wowpedia.org/Rehgar_Earthfury
Post by
Rankkor
As for the battling for amusement bit I hate to say it Rank, but Thrall apparently doesn't have many compunctions about that himself, as we saw with the gladiator slaves owned by orcs during Wrynn's recent amnesiac adventure being set to fight one another to the death. So it may be wrong, but the orcs even beneath a benevolent ruler such as Thrall are hardly innocent of it themselves.
You're not seriously comparing the two are you? The way the "slaves" were treated is ridiculously different. Varian himself practically enjoyed celebrity status during his time as a gladiator, and was given free roam to go wherever he wanted, was never physically or verbally abused, was invited to have dinner with high status people like hamuul, and was in fact given so many liberties his escape was practically a joke.
The lore is a little fuzzy regarding what the official stance on that is among the orcs, on the one hand we see that its a forbidden practice, on the other hand, once the lid was blown on the crimson ring, Reghar faced no repercussions for it.
Its just bad writing from the comic's since they never bothered to properly explain that conundrum, not to mention that we're supposed to feel sorry for varian's status as a gladiator, but as I said above, he was treated like a celebrity, none of the abuse that commonly goes hand-to-hand with being a gladiator, none of the manual labor, no guards going to his cage to beat him up just for fun, no spitting or verbal harassments of any kind, no fighting with patchwork equipment (he was offered the best of the best in gear) no whipping or torture involved, they didn't even bothered to break him (A common practice in slavery is to "break" the slave, which involves heavy use of torture to destroy their sense of individuality until they're so broken by the experience that they see themselves as property rather than people, this was done to discourage thoughts of escaping) and was even allowed to roam horde cities freely with no leash or chains attached or anything.
Instead he lived like a king, enjoying abundant banquets, being hailed as a champion and a celebrity (people admired him, not made fun of him as was the case with the orcs, if they won, the orcs were NEVER shown any respect), enjoying dinners with high profile people, getting to explore the world, and having a blast while fighting, since varian on more than one ocassion has said that he misses his glory days as a gladiator. *heavy sarcasm* Ohh dear god, what suffering he endured, sweet jesus, what a poor tortured soul *End of sarcasm*
But, even if we ignore that (and we kinda have to, as badly written as those comics are, they're considered canon) the difference in treatment of the slaves between both factions is BLATANTLY different, with the horde treating their slaves with quite a lot of respect and civility, whereas the alliance treated their slaves worse than dirt. They treated them like Ramses did with the hebrews in the Ten Commandments movie.
As for whether or not it was allowed, its entirely possible that the organizers of the crimson ring bribed the authorities to look the other way, whereas in the alliance, orc slavery was not only open knowledge, the nobles didn't cared, and in fact openly approved of the practice as it provided them with entertainment.
Post by
Adamsm
Um...you realize you just made my point right Money? Mentions there that pretty much all of the current orc slavery is illegal. Even Earthfury mentions that he had made enough on Lo'gosh's last match that he can go straight and leave that life behind.
It's still not as bad as what Blackmoore did, and the fact that it seemed as if the Lordaeron nobles and throne didn't seem to give two !@#$s on whether or not the orcs were killed in the matches there, as long as they got their circus.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I believe we discussed the matter of the difference between the treatment of Varian as a slave and Thrall before Rank, and settled on the fact that keeping people in cages and manacles and only allowed out to fight is indeed a bad thing regardless of the conditions. How they are treated is irrelevant compared to the fact that they
are not allowed to leave and forced to fight to the death
. Therefore we should put that aside.
However, I think what Adamsm pointed out is something worth exploring. How pervasive and accepted is slavery amongst the current Horde? We have varying interpretations and somewhat muddled lore, so this may be a fruitful thread of inquiry.
Gladiators are clearly common enough to be considered almost celebrity, as Rank pointed out, and the fact that Rehgar's past as a slaver and gladiator trainer did not stain his reputation to the point he was invited to be one of Thrall's closest advisers, even though he made no secret of it, discussing it in front of Thrall hismelf during he summit at Theramore, and that there appears to be legislation in place for who can be taken as slaves and who cannot when Broll pointed out there may be trouble and Rehgar refuted it.
In addition to that, we have the visit to Hamuul Runetotem, who made no complaint at their being slaves openly, though he did assist secretly. Therefore, can we take this an indication that the owning of slaves is not technically illegal amongst orcs? Or was Hamuul merely trying to work around directly confronting his friend on a matter that otherwise would see Rehgar in chains himself?
Post by
Lordplatypus
Let me just say something here.
Varian fought to the
death
thrall did not.
Varian was a celeberity because he won big fights, Thrall was part of a small underground ring, Varian, as Lo'Gosh fought in pretty much the "Big Leagues", more or less fought a group of ogres 3v1 (Broll and Veleera weren't much use that fight).
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