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Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I never said the alliance was 100% white, that'd be stupid. They're like, 70% white, 20% grey, and 10% black. They have their black hats, white hats, and grey hats, it's just that the white hats far outweigh the grey and black hats in the alliance
Your opinion, and as long as you present it as YOUR opinion instead of a fact, we won't have a problem with it, since we all have our own opinions on this matter as well.
Personally, on MY opinion (not factual, just my own interpretation) BOTH factions are actually 50% white, 30% gray, 20% black. Its just more noticeable on the horde because pretty much ALL of the black is neatly concentrated on the forsaken, and pretty much ALL the gray is neatly spread between the forsaken and the orcs. Whereas on the alliance, the black and the gray are spread out across ALL races, and never focused on one specific group as a whole.
Plus the devs really love to advertise the unpleasant actions of the horde, but one usually has to dig a little to see the unpleasant actions of the alliance (Which more often than not tend to happen on the expanded universe)
I acknowledge the bad things members of the alliance have done, I just don't believe in blaming an entire faction for what someone in it did.
Why not, you seem pretty content to do that to the horde. I'll have you know that not ALL of the forsakens are crazy genocidal madmen, most are, but there are SOME forsakens who are genuinely good, or at the very least, gray, yet you would paint them all with the same brush, and by proxy, the horde in general based solely on flavor text. Doesn't that seems a little unfair? if you don't paint your own faction with the same brush for all of them, why would you do so for mine?
Gilneas was a neutral target, and the invasion was organized by the warchief of the horde, and taking part in the invasion were orcs and forsaken, along with their queen sylvanas. Can we say the tauren, trolls, goblins, and forsaken supported it? No, because none of them were present, so we blame the ones who were present and clearly supported it, the orcs and forsaken.
I don't think the invasion of gilneas can truly be justified, since it was a neutral target and the reason for invading it was flimsy, "a port". That's a really weak justification for genocide.
Wrong and wrong.
You keep saying that gilneas was a "neutral nation" but here's the kicker: Gilneas as a nation was DEAD, by the time the forsaken invaded. The entire kingdom was taken over by feral worgen, and there were only a handful of humans scattered in REAAAAALY small settlements. As a sovereign kingdom, gilneas was simply GONE. In its place were FERAL worgens who have been enemies of the forsaken for years, and not only that, as we've all told you, the reason for building a port on gilneas IS justified.
It was not a petty request, it was a military move to secure a GAP on the forsaken border, a gap that as you saw (ohh wait, you didn't saw it since you haven't quested on silverpine as horde, I keep forgetting) the alliance used to move troops straight to the backyard of the forsaken. It would had been a pretty stupid move to leave that gap open, they had to secure it to protect the border. The alliance did the same (or at least they tried) with that island that rose to the north of stormwind, because nothing is dumber than leaving your defenses open.
So no, the invasion of gilneas WAS justified. However, I will agree that the part that wasn't justified was the "extracurricular activities" the forsaken did BEHIND THE ORC'S BACK. I'm talking of course of slaving the human population of gilneas, and raising their dead as extra forsaken. Its one thing to invade a hostile no-man's land to secure a gap on your defenses, and another entirely to enslave the few survivors that no-man's land had in the first place, and raise them as forsaken.
On THAT point I will agree with you, but not on the invasion itself.
And just so we're clear, the orcs NEVER lowered themselves to the forsaken level, they (as far as you saw) NEVER enslaved the human population there, nor did they used the blight, nor did they raised them all as undead. In fact, the orcs specifically said to the forsakens to NOT use the blight, and judging by the reaction of garrosh and crommush, they also weren't in the loop regarding the necromancy either.
On the attempted capture of thrall, I'll admit, if anyone ordered the capture of thrall, it was varian. I just don't believe, based on his history, he'd order the murders of any random bystander who just happened to see the capture happening. I also question why he would even care if anyone saw, are they gonna call the azerothian police department on them?
Even if you don't like it, or don't understand it, you can't deny that IT DID happened.
Hey, I've had to deal with the same stuff too. To this day I still don't understand why did Thrall appointed gallywix as the goblin leader, its just a dumb move no matter how you look at it, and I just can't find any justification as to why he didn't simply got a doomhammer to the head.
Yet even though I don't like it, and don't understand it, it still happened.
As to why would he cover it up? that's one of the flaws of the alliance, they commit dark deeds, but want those deeds to be secret, so they can maintain the appereance of honor, of justicars of freedom, of paragons of virtue, ect ect. Garona Halfhorcen said it best:
In your histories, there are continual justifications for all manner of hellish actions. Claims of
nobility
and
heritage
and honor to cover up every bit of
genocide
,
assassination
, and
massacre
.
At least the Horde is honest in their naked lust for power
.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
You forget that in curse of the worgen it's revealed ralaar worked with the forsaken to plan the worgen invasion of gilneas city, to weaken the countries defenses so that they could invade. I thought we already went over this......(this part is fact)
It may be fact, but it doesn't change the fact that gilneas as a kingdom dind't existed, it was entirely occupied by worgens. The humans were barely like 5% of the total population.
Nor does it change the fact that gilneas DID represented a gap on the forsaken's border defenses, so the invasion WAS justified (what was not justified was what was done with the human population there)
and I just don't see varian ordering the attacking of innocent bystanders,
it's not him, it's not in his character
(especially after wolfheart, which occured before the lost isles questing, due to that worgen SI:7 agent on the isle). It just doesn't, make, sense. I don't think it was entirely masterminded by him, other higher ups in the alliance had to be in on it.
Or it could have possibly have been entirely masterminded by the SI:7. OR varian ordered mathias shaw to send several of his SI:7 agents to capture thrall, and mathias told his underlings that he wants no witnesses "the king has ordered us to capture thrall, I don't want any witnesses, do I make myself clear?". That sounds like something a rogue would mastermind. (this part is opinion)
And yet, I have the same gripe with Thrall letting Gallywix live AND appoint him as goblin leader. Its not him, its not his character to simply pardon someone who ENSLAVED HIS OWN PEOPLE. For all intents and purposes, Gallywix is almost the goblin equivalent of Gul'dan, why on earth would thrall forgive him, let alone MAKE HIM THE GOBLIN LEADER, just boggles me.
And as far as silencing witnesses, I just provided you with a reason. The alliance loves to maintain a shiny image, and this isn't just varian, this is pretty much how ALL alliance leaders think and act.
Garona really nailed it with the quote I just linked above.
Post by
306612
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Garona also has a ridiculous last name.
you're telling me :S
Post by
Adamsm
True but warlock demon form looks like a man, it's odd to see a female gnome turn into a giant buff demon guy.It's a giant humanoid Demon made up of Fel Energy; why in the world would it have a female form? Seriously, there really isn't a need for that.
And the Red Panda skin is still the dumbest I've seen.
Also, Sold, the Worgen SI:7 agent was just dropped in there; since the Worgens don't join up till after the Shattering officially happen and the Gobs are forced off of Kezan due to Deathwing breaking their island, there wouldn't be enough time for a Worgen to 'officially' join in; it was just a model addition like seeing Draenei where they shouldn't have been in BC.
Post by
Rankkor
True but warlock demon form looks like a man, it's odd to see a female gnome turn into a giant buff demon guy.It's a giant humanoid Demon made up of Fel Energy; why in the world would it have a female form? Seriously, there really isn't a need for that.
And the Red Panda skin is still the dumbest I've seen.
Also, Sold, the Worgen SI:7 agent was just dropped in there; since the Worgens don't join up till after the Shattering officially happen and the Gobs are forced off of Kezan due to Deathwing breaking their island, there wouldn't be enough time for a Worgen to 'officially' join in; it was just a model addition like seeing Draenei where they shouldn't have been in BC.
I'm inclined to agree with this, in fact, back when cata was on beta, there was no worgen there, it was a human a draenei, and a night elf. (Human was a rogue, draenei was a paladin, night elf was a mage)
They later changed the draenei female to night elf female, as well as her class from paladin to rogue, and the male night elf to male worgen, his class from mage to rogue.
The time-gap is too short, goblins arrive on the lost island, literally HOURS after the shattering, the worgen joined the alliance in a more "official" way several days if not weeks after the shattering happened. Do remember that back when the shattering was still fresh, the gilneans were kinda busy fleeing greymane manor. (Which is when duskhaven finishes flooding)
Why would they do that? your guess is as good as mine =/
These guys really need to clean up their act, this is not the only lore counter-diction I've noticed, there's also the conflict regarding Sylvanna's Short story (where garrosh was already on silverpine, when the first time he actually went there in the game was WAY after the invasion had begun already.)
Post by
Adamsm
Also: SI:7 is the long arm of the Stormwind Law; nothing they do is not known by Varian, since he has to sign off on everything. The only time they kept things from the monarch was when Lady Prestor was co-ruler, since Shaw and the rest didn't trust her, and weren't sure how she was controlling Bolvar, so they didn't tell them everything...and since Anduin was a young 10 year old, they weren't going to tell him anything either.
Pretty much Sold, SI:7 is the CIA/MI:5 who report directly to their leader.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
The Shattering: Varian willingly goes with the SI:7 to kill Moria....yeah Sold, they don't do that. /roll eyes Also; Tyrande sent out the stealthy scouts during the Third War to find out; those same scouts killed those they encountered and she knew about it. That's of course, not leaving out the Shadow Wardens who are the CIA of the Night Elves. So yes Sold, it is in their character.
Also: Garona was talking about Stormwind....you know, Varian's father? So yeah...
But this is all pure conjecture.The wrong conjuncture, since any quest with Mathias tells you he has official go ahead to do his job...and that official go ahead can only come from one person: Varian.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Morec0
It's creepy because it's dudes playing female characters, and they are surprised by him reacting differently to their female characters. I think this is actually the first difference we've seen per gender, so that may be catching people off guard. I may be mistaken on that point, though.
Post by
Adamsm
Characters in warcraft are rarely two faced in such a manner, and the few who are tend to get villified eventually (like maeiv and fandral). Based on what I've read about the alliance leaders, their short stories, the novels (wolfheart) the ones I listed are legitimately good people who don't do secretly do questionable things. If they did, it'd be a surprise to me. Moira is pretty much the only morally ambiguous alliance leader, though she doesn't get enough attention, unfortunately. Maeiv could've been another, if they didn't turn her into a villain, same goes with fandral. I hope they don't do the same to moira, I want her to stay amiguous, but they'll probably villify her too.That's not being two-faced...at all; it's about realizing that you can't just have a happy world and only do 'good' things; Gilneas Liberation Front worked side by side with Bloodfang who used guerrilla tactics to ambush and absolutely slaughter any Horde forces they encounter. Night Elves, again, hit from the trees and take off, rarely fighting straight out since it's easier to pull off the hit and run. Humans; SI:7 itself shows that your ideal of Stormwind doesn't exist, as they've been a part of the kingdom since the days of Varian's grandfather, doing the jobs that need to be done no matter how 'evil' those are...and the ruling class has always signed off. Dwarves have no issue with bombing the #$%^ out of their opponents, and the Wildhammers have their honour but it's not to the point of stupidity; they were more then willing to hit the Horde supply trains in the Second War, even though there were peons all over the place(peon's being the closest thing to non-combatants that existed for the Horde). Even the good ole High Tinker pulls off an 'evil' act to take out Thermaplugg finally: Hamstring's him and leaves him to be killed by his own ubertroggs. Also; Velen sure, but the Draenei themselves? Go back and do some of the quests in Bloodmyst: The Vindicators are willing to use as much force as they can to utterly destroy their enemies, no matter what.
You are right though: It's not a 'secret'; they are open with what they do, and accept that sometimes you have to break the rules to get the job done.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Morec0
It's creepy because it's dudes playing female characters, and they are surprised by him reacting differently to their female characters. I think this is actually the first difference we've seen per gender, so that may be catching people off guard. I may be mistaken on that point, though.
I wonder how they feel about this npc.....
http://www.wowpedia.org/Gail_Nozzywig
:)
Oh, well you see she's a woman and she's flirting with males; ergo her actions are automatically non-creepy.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Peon's didn't fight though; they were manual labor, and most of them were considering to be borderline mentally disabled.....
I also never said it was morally questionable, just that all of the Alliance forces are more then willing to do what needs to be done, whether it's 'good' or not.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
but the peons still supplied the enemy army, making them legit targets/shrug If you think shooting fish in a barrel is okay....but the point I'm trying to make, is that people go on and on about how the Horde attacked this target or that target and killed any civilians they found, yet, the Grand Alliance has been doing that to the Horde forces(both of them, since there were Peons in Warcraft 3) since the war started.
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